Raising Interest Rates Is Like Starting a Fission Chain Reaction

Central bankers seem to think that adjusting interest rates is a nice little tool that they can easily handle. The problem is that higher interest rates affect the economy in many ways simultaneously. The lessons that seem to have been learned from past rate hikes may not be applicable today.

Furthermore, there can be quite a long time lag involved. Thus, by the time a central banker starts seeing an effect, it may be clear that the amount of the interest rate change is far too large.

A recent Zerohedge article seems to suggest that problems can arise with 10-year Treasury interest rates of less than 3%. We may be facing a period of declining acceptable interest rates.

Figure 1. Chart from The Scariest Chart in the Market.

Let’s look at a few of the issues involved:

[1] The standard reason for raising interest rates seems to be concern about inflationary impacts occurring as a result of rising food and energy prices. In practice, the impact of such an interest rate change can be quite severe and quite delayed. 

Figure 2 is an illustration from the Bureau of Labor Statistics website showing one of today’s concerns: rising energy costs. Food prices are not yet rising. Normally, however, if oil prices rise, the cost of producing food will also rise. This happens because modern agricultural methods and transportation to markets both require the use of petroleum products.

Figure 2. Figure created by the US Bureau of Labor Statistics showing percentage change in the Consumer Price Index between January 2017 and January 2018, for selected categories.

In fact, raising short-term interest rates seems to have been associated with trying to bring down rising food and energy costs, as early as the 1970s and early 1980s.

Figure 3. US three-month treasury interest rates. Chart prepared by St. Louis Federal Reserve.

The reason why an increase in short-term interest rates is helpful is because it reliably induces a recession. A person can see the close connection between short-term interest rate increases and recessions (gray bars) in Figure 3. Recessions in turn damp down food and energy prices.

The reason why this damping down effect occurs is because when there is a recession, many people are laid off from work. These people purchase fewer goods and services. With people out of work, “demand” for goods and services falls. (Demand is very closely related to “amount affordable.”) We might think of demand for goods and services as helping to maintain the “production” of new homes, new cars, upscale food products, toys, and even consulting services.

When demand falls, fewer goods of practically every type are made. This indirectly leads to less need for commodities of many types, including oil, natural gas, metals, and food. Commodities have very long production cycles, and only modest storage facilities. When lower demand for a commodity such as oil occurs, prices tend to adjust sharply downward, in order to signal the need for lower production. Figure 4 shows that interest rate spikes corresponded to the 1973-1974 oil price spike, the 1979 oil price spike, the 2004-2008 price run-up, and perhaps to other shorter oil price spikes.

Figure 4. Annual averages of Brent oil prices (in 2016$) and 3-month average interest rates, based on data similar to that shown in Figure 3 from “FRED.”

The annual data in Figure 4 loses the detail of month-to-month variations. Because of this, it makes the impact of the Great Recession look much less severe than it really was. Figure 5, using monthly data for recent periods, shows more clearly the severe fall in oil prices following the run-up in short-term interest rates in the 2004-2007 period.

Figure 5. Three-month US Treasury interest rates and Brent oil prices, both on a monthly average basis. Graph by FRED.

If a person looks at the indirect impacts on the economy as a whole, it becomes clear that the rise in short-term interest rates was one of the proximate causes of the Great Recession of 2008-2009. I talk about this in Oil Supply Limits and the Continuing Financial Crisis. The minutes of the June 2004 Federal Reserve Open Market Committee indicate that the committee decided to start raising interest rates at a rate of 0.25% per quarter for the purpose of stopping the rise in energy and food prices.

The huge financial problems that indirectly resulted did not occur until four years later, in 2008. It is likely that most economists are unaware of the connection between the decision to raise rates back in 2004 and the Great Recession several years later.

[2] Higher energy prices squeeze a person’s “spendable income.” Higher interest rates have the same effect.

Economist James Hamilton showed that ten out of eleven recent recessions were associated with oil price shocks. We would argue that if an economy is subject to higher interest rates in addition to higher oil prices, the economy is doubly likely to go into recession. Figure 6 shows an illustration of the situation.

Figure 6. Image by author showing recessionary impact of rising energy costs and interest costs.

A wage earner’s pay does not normally increase as energy costs rise, or as interest costs rise. Even if energy and interest costs are well buried (in higher food costs, or in the higher cost of goods transported across the country, or in higher student loan payments) the amount of income that a person has available to spend on discretionary goods and services falls if energy and interest costs rise. Having both energy and interest costs take a bigger share of available income at the same time is especially a problem.

[3] Reduced interest rates can be used to conceal the adverse impact of rising energy prices.

This is another version of what we saw in Figure 6. If interest rates can be reduced, they can offset most of the bad impacts of higher energy prices. For example, if oil prices are higher, it helps if auto loans and mortgage loans are lower in cost.

Figure 7. Image by author showing that artificially low interest rates can mostly offset the impact of rising energy costs.

Of course, central bankers don’t necessarily think this through. To what extent is today’s economy really dependent on very low interest rates?

[4] Falling interest rates have an almost magical impact on the economy. Rising interest rates reverse these magical impacts, and replace them with very negative impacts.

We saw in Figure 6 how falling interest rates could more or less conceal a rise in energy prices. The following are a few of the additional magical things that falling interest rates can do:

(a) Falling interest can raise asset prices of many kinds, including homes, stock prices, resale prices of bonds, and the price of land.

(b) Falling interest rates can raise commodity prices, making it possible to extract more fossil fuels and metals. Resources that previously did not look economic to extract, suddenly become economic to extract. This change occurs because with lower interest rates, more people can afford to purchase goods that use oil, such as cars and motorcycles. This tends to raise demand for oil products, and thus prices.

(c) Because higher-priced energy extraction becomes feasible at lower interest rates, more advanced technology, at higher prices, suddenly becomes feasible. Jobs open up in research areas that would not previously have made sense at lower energy prices.

(d) Falling interest rates can make the balance sheets of companies holding stocks and bonds as assets look better, because of their rising prices.

(e) Rising asset prices “feed back” into spendable income. People with homes that have risen in value can refinance, and use the proceeds to fix up their home (add an additional room or an updated kitchen, for example). Individual citizens and companies can sell shares of stock that have risen in value and use those proceeds to augment other income.

If interest rates rise rather than fall, the impacts can be expected to be extremely recessionary. The stock market may crash. Homes are likely to lose value because of a lack of buyers that can afford them. Energy resources that seemed to be available can suddenly seem not to be feasible because of low prices.

[5] The economy was able to reasonably tolerate the run-up in interest rates in the 1950 – 1980 period because the economy was growing very rapidly. 

A person can see the pattern of short-term interest rates in Figure 3, above. Long-term (10-year) interest rates follow a somewhat similar, but smoother, pattern (Figure 8).

Figure 8. Monthly average 10-year Treasury interest rates, through January 2018, in chart by FRED.

World per capita energy consumption was rising very rapidly in the 1950 to 1970 period. Even in the troubled 1970 to 1980 period, per capita energy consumption continued to rise, although not as quickly (Figure 9).

Figure 9. World per capita energy consumption, with 1950-1980 period of rapid growth highlighted. World Energy Consumption by Source, based on Vaclav Smil estimates from Energy Transitions: History, Requirements and Prospects (Appendix) together with BP Statistical Data for 1965 and subsequent, divided by population estimates by Angus Maddison.

When world per capita energy consumption is growing this rapidly, jobs tend to be plentiful and wages tend to rise faster than inflation. According to Figure 10, US wages rose more rapidly than inflation in the 1950 to 1970 period, without wage disparity becoming a problem. Even in the 1970 to 1980 period, when high oil prices were a problem, US wages were able to rise quickly enough to keep up with inflation. Rising wage disparity did not become a problem until after 1980.

Figure 10. Chart comparing income gains by the top 10% to income gains by the bottom 90% by economist Emmanuel Saez. Amounts are inflation adjusted. Based on an analysis of IRS data, published in Forbes.

The share of US citizens in the workforce also rose during the period up to 1980, as an increasing percentage of women joined the workforce (Figure 11).

Figure 11. Employment as a percentage of the population, aged 25-54. Chart from FRED, using OECD amounts.

The thing that made the 1950-1970 period unusual was the growing availability of inexpensive fossil fuels. With fossil fuels, it was possible to add expressways where they had never been before. This allowed more interstate trade and improved the productivity of truck drivers. Labor saving devices allowed women to join the workforce. Farming continued to become more productive, with all of its labor saving equipment. Even as energy prices rose in the 1970 to 1980 period, citizens were able to continue to buy energy products because their wages were rising enough to keep up with inflation.

The growth in productivity was so great that wages plus government benefits (as measured by “Disposable Personal Income”) rose almost too fast. This added inflationary pressures to the economy. It is my opinion that these inflationary pressures contributed greatly to the oil price run-up in the 1973-1974 and the 1979-1981 periods.

Figure 12. Three-year average growth in Disposable Personal Income compared to inflation as measured by CPI-Urban. DPI from US Bureau of Economic Analysis; CPI from Bureau of Labor Statistics. Per Capita Disposable Personal Income is calculated by dividing DPI by US population, also from the BEA.

The run-up in oil prices also to some extent reflected a scarcity problem; note the two spikes in CPI-Urban in the 1970s in Figure 12, which are higher than would be expected, if the problem were simply a problem caused by the very high per capita Disposable Personal Income growth.

A major problem of the 1970s was a decline in US crude oil production for the area outside Alaska.

Figure 13. US crude oil production by type, based on EIA data.

This scarcity problem was significantly mitigated by the development of oil fields in Alaska, Mexico, and the North Sea in the next few years.

One of the things that substantially helped fix the oil problems of the 1970s was the fact that the US, as well as other developed countries, was able to make changes that substantially reduced their oil consumption. These changes included:

  • Moving to smaller, more fuel-efficient cars
  • Finding fuel substitutes when oil was being burned to create electricity
  • Changing oil-based home heating to approaches that used other fuels

Figure 14. Oil consumption by part of the world. Data from BP Statistical Report of World Energy 2017.

The combination of these approaches brought supply and demand more into balance. There was a small dip in consumption in the 1973-1975 period, and a larger dip in the 1979 to 1984 period. In comparison, the Great Recession of 2008-2009 hardly made a dent.

An indirect impact of these changes was the fact that the US economy needed to become more integrated into the world market. The US started importing smaller, more fuel-efficient vehicles from Japan, since Japan was already making these cars. Japan started making other kinds of goods as well to sell to the US and other markets. The US and other countries built nuclear electric generation to replace some of the oil-fired electricity generation. These plants were capital intensive and required growing debt.

Especially after 1981, changes started to take place in the US economy, reflecting its changed role in the world. US companies grew in size, as they began to add overseas markets to their local markets. Wage disparity became more of an issue, as high tech operations required more specialized high-wage workers and fewer of those with only a general education. Increased competition for jobs with workers from lower-wage countries also tended to hold down wages of those without advanced training.

[6] The situation is very different now, compared to the 1970s. It is doubtful that today’s economy could tolerate a spike in interest rates.

Today, we are not seeing rapid growth in per capita energy consumption, the way we were in the 1950 to 1980 period (Figure 9). In fact, world per capita energy consumption is almost flat (Figure 15), the way it was during the period of the Great Depression of the 1930s, and the way it was at the time of the collapse of the former Soviet Union in the 1990s (Figure 9).

Figure 15. World energy per capita and world oil price in 2016 US$. Energy amounts from BP Statistical Review of World Energy, 2017. Population estimates from UN 2017 Population data and Medium Estimates.

There are other similarities to the 1930s period. Short-term interest rates are back to the low level they were in the 1930s (Figure 3). Growth in Disposable Personal Income per capita is persistently low (Figure 12). Wage disparity is at the high level experienced back in the 1930s (Figure 16).

Figure 16. U. S. Income Shares of Top 1% and Top 0.1%, Wikipedia exhibit by Piketty and Saez.

It is probably because of this renewed wage disparity that we are having difficulty with oil gluts. Oil gluts were also experienced in the 1930s. People with inadequate wages cannot afford goods made with oil products. These gluts occur because of affordability problems–inadequate wages for part of the workforce.

Figure 17. US ending stock of crude oil, excluding the strategic petroleum reserve. Figure produced by EIA. Figure by EIA.

Despite the spike in oil prices that central bankers are concerned about, oil prices are currently too low for producers. Oil exporting countries, such as Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, and Nigeria, depend on high oil prices so that they can collect high tax revenue. These countries are especially hurt by today’s low oil prices.

An increase in interest rates could very easily create a recession and drop oil prices even lower than they are today. Of course, that is precisely the intent of the central bankers. Our problem is that the economy cannot operate without energy products, particularly oil. The cost of producing oil is rising because of diminishing returns. It simply is not possible to drop its price as low as oil-importing countries would like it to be.

[7] Economists and central bankers think that they have good models of how the economy operates, but they really do not. 

The economy is a self-organized system that is able to create goods and services using energy products. In fact, it cannot continue its existence, without continued very substantial energy consumption. The economy gradually builds itself up, with new businesses, new consumers, newly invented products, and with transportation and financial systems. I envision the economy as looking something like a child’s toy that is built from many pieces. If one or more pieces are removed, the system could collapse.

Figure 18. Dome constructed using Leonardo Sticks

The economy has been built based on the laws of physics. It requires sufficient energy. It is in many ways like a hurricane that loses power if it is forced to go over land for any distance. A hurricane gets extra strength if it is able to pass over very warm water, which provides the energy it needs. Right now, the world economy is showing signs that it does not have sufficient energy; the standard of living of young people around the world is falling. The return on energy investment is far too low.

While it may be true that the US economy looks like it is at full employment, based on the number of people looking for jobs, the percentage of people aged 25-54 with jobs tells a different story (Figure 11). This percentage has fallen since 2000, at least partly because of globalization.

Unfortunately, the approach that economists are taking to model the economy cannot provide a good representation of how the economy really works. A self-organized system has many feedback loops that are difficult to understand and model. One change leads to other changes that are hard to see in advance. The problem with current models is that they are likely to produce misleading indications.

[8] Conclusion

We have heard the saying, “That which does not kill you makes you stronger.” The theory behind raising interest rates seems to follow a similar line of reasoning. If central bankers can raise interest rates, economies will be stronger.

The catch is that we are too close to the “edge” to be testing an increase in interest rates. Economies, below a certain “stall speed,” cannot repay debt with interest, and cannot hope to provide entrepreneurs with an adequate return on investment. Our low rate of growth is already close to this stall speed.

Given where we are today, it would be quite possible to accidentally “kill” the economy with rising interest rates. This would be especially the case if short-term and longer-term interest rates rise at the same time. A budget with large deficits could cause longer-term interest rates to rise. So could selling large amounts of QE debt.

Also, feedbacks don’t come quickly enough to make necessary course corrections. This makes raising interest rates way too much like playing with physics reactions we don’t fully understand. Interest rate increases (like fission reactions) start chain reactions. In an open environment such as the world economy, we have limited understanding of the outcome of these chain reactions.

About Gail Tverberg

My name is Gail Tverberg. I am an actuary interested in finite world issues - oil depletion, natural gas depletion, water shortages, and climate change. Oil limits look very different from what most expect, with high prices leading to recession, and low prices leading to financial problems for oil producers and for oil exporting countries. We are really dealing with a physics problem that affects many parts of the economy at once, including wages and the financial system. I try to look at the overall problem.
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2,489 Responses to Raising Interest Rates Is Like Starting a Fission Chain Reaction

  1. kulmthestatusquo says:

    A few threads ago they talked about nursing home crisis.

    Korea is actually worse. Because Korea does not have a social security (it is available for a very limited basis, but few people bothered to contributed it in the early days), the family has to come up with the cash to maintain the elderly. As a result, poor elderly are simply abandoned by their family members.

    For those ‘lucky’ enough to be put into nursing homes, 20 of them are put into one room, cared by 1-2 underpaid nurses and hired hands from China and Southeast Asia, and are put into diapers.

    This nursing home fire occurred earlier this year

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-42828023

    Miryang is a backwater town, about 1 hr’s drive from the city of Pusan where a few million people live. Because it is cheaper to house the elderly at that town, a lot of people from Pusan and other surrounding cities dumped their parents there where they died.

    There is no program to keep the elderly, who are sedated and put into diapers which get changed once in a while.

    I agree that putting them to sleep would be a more dignified way.

  2. Third World person says:

    i am little shocked by that Cuba has not be collapsed especially

    seeing they huge depend on Venezuela oil
    they country also survive impact of collapse soviet union and sanctions of usa
    Cuban people are very resilient people
    and who can forget these guys who pissed off cia

    what ever people think about them cia definitely did not like these guys

    • Duncan Idaho says:

      Castro died of old age.
      The US and Cuba have the same male life expectancy (76.9).
      Of course, at 31st world wide, it is nothing to brag about.

    • Greg Machala says:

      I suppose that most Cubans live a simple low energy life. They never industrialized as heavily as the US did. It seems a bit ironic. By starving Cuba of technological advancements through decades of sanctions, the US may actually have prepared Cuba for the collapse of the financial system. In the end Cuba may outlast the US.

      • Third World person says:

        btw cuban cigars are very good

        • Third World person says:

          another funny thing is Cuban in usa most voting for right wing parties

          • Neil says:

            It’s not really that funny – they’re in the US because they don’t like the communism they have at home.

            • in no way am i a communist

              but has been the concept of thinking of the world as ‘capital’ that has screwed it up for everyone

            • djerek says:

              “has been the concept of thinking of the world as ‘capital’ that has screwed it up for everyone”

              Communism takes the same fundamental assumption, it just wants to distribute that capital evenly.

            • communist leaders tend to think like capitalist leaders—they grab the best for themselves while the common herd have to make do with the leavings

              communist leaders are no more altruistic than anybody else, they see to themselves and their immediate tribe first

            • Slow Paul says:

              …some animals are more equal than others.

          • Greg Machala says:

            I have read that both capitalism and communism lead to the same end result – resource depletion, a wrecked financial system and ruin. It is just that capitalism achieves the end result faster.

            • And as a result, capitalism wins out over communism, while energy supplies are available.

              Democracy is a great user of energy. Dictatorship doesn’t use as much. Dictatorship would seem to be the winner in decline.

            • djerek says:

              It’s not a coincidence that the last round of dictatorships arose after the energy constraints with coal…

            • Greg Machala says:

              Scary stuff Gail! But, logical.

  3. JH Wyoming says:

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/06/42-percent-of-americans-are-at-risk-of-retiring-broke.html

    ‘42% of Americans are at risk of retiring broke’

    That’s the title to that article, but as we know there is no retirement if someone is broke. Which of course means many in the baby boom generation will just keep on working where jobs are available, which of course takes jobs away from fresher generations, which puts more pressure on the economy because income is spread over a wider population, resulting in fewer big ticket items like houses and autos purchased. As collapse approaches everything is spreading thinner while the fiscal efforts to jolt the economy into a higher gear are ratcheting up.

    • Retirement today often seems to happen when a person is laid off and cannot find another job that is at all comparable. A lot of older people are not interested in trying to find a job in a totally different sector, starting at the bottom of the pay scale. I do know a former Cobol programmer who works in a fast food restaurant, but she was fairly young when she was laid off. Also, she is a widow–has no choice but work.

      • Dennis L says:

        At various times I have encountered professionals from various countries who after moving here have done what are truly menial jobs.They picked up the pieces and began again; it is better than nothing. If the programmer has responsibilities, perhaps she has no options. But, as a programmer, she could have looked forward and transitioned into a different area of programming, or networking, or operations, or………
        It is tough emotionally to make a move down; but it is better to move before your options are limited so as to maximize choices. It is not fun, but it does toughen a person, and it makes them “resillient” to use a popular term among the more aware.
        With the US debt where it is, I expect a cut in income around 2020 at the latest, SS is cash flow negative now. Again, another pearl from this site.

        • Cobol is a language that was used a lot, long ago. It is not used as much now. There are a huge number of Cobol programmers around. I know that she started to go to the college where my husband teaches to try to pick up a series of courses that would lead to her having a college degree in programming, besides knowing another language or two, but I think the time/cost hurdle was too great.

          I am not sure what, if any, college degree she had originally. Not every programmer has a college degree, especially ones who started years ago. Companies used to be more liberal on who they would train from scratch.

          • i literally conned my way into a design office years ago for a ‘trial period’ with no experience whatsoever of the products being designed, degree or anything–I stayed 8 years

            luckily i had a flair for it.—i knew that much—i was a cheeky beggar

            nowadays i wouldnt get through the door

            • My husband has been teaching computer science without a degree in computer science. He has a Ph. D. in Math. He picked up some computer programming knowledge while in doing his Math Ph.D., back in the day when math and computer science were often taught in the same department. He began teaching, and drifted in the Computer Science direction. He picked up enough coursework (from different schools) for a master’s degree in Computer Science, but never received a master’s degree in computer science. Over the years, he was promoted to Full Professor with tenure in the (now separate) computer science department. He has written practically no academic papers. (He was on the “teaching and service” track–lots of committee work, instead.) He says that he would never be hired today.

            • two of a kind obviously—except i have no degree in anything except life

              and i sometimes think i faked most of that

      • JH Wyoming says:

        Sure Gail, but if someone is retirement age and has no money what do they do to pay bills? Bills don’t stop pouring in just because someone is at retirement age. They have to work at whatever they can get.

  4. JH Wyoming says:

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-japan-disaster-nuclear-icewall/tepcos-ice-wall-fails-to-freeze-fukushimas-toxic-water-buildup-idUSKCN1GK0SY

    Fukushima update: The ice wall is now complete, and although it was intended to reduce/eliminate water getting into the broken down reactor, the amount of water has actually increased. Next idea!

    • Greg Machala says:

      Find a way to make the whole mess go super critical and melt its way to the Earths magma.

      • JH Wyoming says:

        That would be interesting but possibly even more disastrous. How about a bunker busting small yield nuclear blast which would cause the whole mess to plume into the surrounding atmosphere, then cordon off that area for how ever many thousands of years necessary. In a way it would be like pulling a band-aid off all at once to conclude the untenable situation once and for all by just admitting there are no answers except to bomb it and then there would be no more endless hours spent coming up with stupid ideas like an underground ice wall.

        • Tagio says:

          That people built the nuclear power industry (400+ reactors) without having any way to deal with a catastrophic failure of this sort and any real plan to deal with the waste tells you everything you need to know about humans’ so-called thinking abilities, intelligence and judgment.

          • But just think–you could use the byproducts for building nuclear weapons. Wasn’t that enough reason to go ahead?

          • Neil says:

            How about the one on the California coast at San Onofre? It’s now closed, but is a store for nuclear waste, so as long as there isn’t a major earthquake in the period of radioactivity of the material stored, several half lives later, it should be fine, probably.

  5. Baby Doomer says:

    The country will soon make a hard left turn. Stay tuned…

    • JH Wyoming says:

      How much more will ‘The People’ be willing to take? So far they’ve been convinced of ‘Trickle Down’, the wealthy are the ‘Job Creators’ and as such deserve special treatment, that the most recent tax cuts just helped a tiny top percentage with table scraps hitting the floor for the rest, and once the social security retirement age is raised to 78 and benefits cut in half, possibly then they will realize they’ve been had and utter some minor disagreement as they drag their disheveled selves back to their minimum wage jobs that only pay a small part of the bills. If they sound off what they’ll find is the politicians are no longer answering to them but instead to the lobbyists in DC, so they will air out their concerns on the internet which will be ignored. ‘The People’ have lost to more powerful players. All people can do now is take it because no one speaks for them.

      • Greg Machala says:

        I get a sense that things are reaching the boiling point though. When people loose everything and they have nothing left to loose – they loose it. – Gerald Celente.

      • We know that in past collapses, very often governments could not collect enough taxes. They collapsed for lack of taxes. It is easy to see this end point.

        • Dennis l says:

          As long as the government keeps its hands off SS and Medicare all will be well.

          • The government will collapse if it tries to keep SS and Medicare as it is. It can’t collect enough taxes to keep both programs operating, as far as I can see. Medicare is a worse problem than Social Security.

            By the way, I talked to a neighbor yesterday, who had just come back from her mother’s funeral. She said that her mother was 90 years old. She had had a stroke a few days before she died. They operated on her brain, to remove two blood clots, but despite all of the intervention, she died.

            Come on now–no wonder our health care costs are outrageous. We should not be doing brain surgery on 90 year olds with bad prognoses to begin with. (I didn’t say that to the neighbor, obviously.)

            • greg machala says:

              Sometimes I just am at a loss for words. This is one of those occasions.

            • Fast Eddy says:

              Can’t turn them down though — death panels not allowed….

            • Baby Doomer says:

              There was a guy on reddit a few years ago who lived in North Carolina and was bit by a poisonous snake out in the woods. So he went to the ER and they gave him a shot of anti venom. He was there for around 2 hours time. He got the bill and it cost 70k dollars. He went on the internet and found the same Anti Venom he could buy from India for 750 dollars. He posted the bills and everything to prove it too…

    • Davidin100millionbilliontrillionzillionyears says:

      BD “The country will soon make a hard left turn. Stay tuned…”

      yes!

      BD, I think you are absolutely correct!

      after the 2020 elections, the Ds will have house of reps, senate and POTUS…

      then…

      they will own the collapsing economy of the 2020s…

      sounds like a plan!

    • Neil says:

      If the 2008 financial crisis had been allowed to run its true capitalistic, bailout-free course, the picture might be a lot different.

  6. take a break from doomerising

    listen to bbc radio 4
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09th4hf

    its a repeat of hitchikers guide to the galaxy—sit back, close your eyes, and take a break for half an hour, and pretend that all is well—as you die laughing

    puts the real perspective on everything

  7. kesar0 says:

    Peak everything?
    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/07/we-may-have-hit-peak-trade-even-without-trumps-tariffs-ubs.html

    Currency wars -> Tariff wars -> Real wars.
    Will we have the usual sequence?

    • Greg Machala says:

      Absolutely! I agree we have reached peak trade. The tariff fiasco is just grand standing. Won’t do anything. We are all out of bullets to fight off what is coming.

    • theblondbeast says:

      The only thing we haven’t reached is peak cowbell.

    • The article raises good points–trade already not growing much.

      We need to think in per capita term. Trade is already shrinking, per capita, I expect. Using “peak” terminology confuses. The peak comes as a per capita peak.

  8. JH Wyoming says:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43337951

    Trump imposes tariffs:

    I actually agree with Trump on this, because the US has taken it way too long as far as a trade imbalance goes and this will work towards helping US workers. Tariffs are actually not liked by Republicans. It is actually a Democrat type move, because it tries to help improve worker wages in steel & aluminum. So I tip my hat to Trump on this one.

    Here’s another idea: Charge $25. dollar tariff on every single container box from China. That would help the trade imbalance with them.

    • China is refusing to take certain types of trash for recycling/ processing. This means that a whole lot of containers are going back empty. Before shippers were able to spread their costs over a two-way trip, with both portions paying freight charges. Now, they need to collect enough money to cover the round-trip. looking only at goods imported by the US (and by Europe). Diseconomies of lack of scale say costs will now be higher. This is like a tariff on every container box coming from China. Makes imports from China cost more (or the shipping companies go out of business).

      • Lastcall says:

        Be interesting if the containers returning to China had the payment in IOU’s (the pieces of paper called $US) for the goods that were on board. Maybe it would sink in that real work is being exchanged for hot air in the form of digital-bits.

  9. Baby Doomer says:

    US military ‘could lose its next war’ with Russia or China, warns Rand Corporation

    https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/us-military-could-lose-its-next-war-russia-china-warns-rand-corporation-1651034

    • greg machala says:

      The US, Russia and China can’t really go to war with each other. Such would escalate into a nuclear confrontation resulting in the death of billions of people. Then again, maybe that is our destiny.

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