Why political correctness fails – Why what we know ‘for sure’ is wrong (Ex Religion)

Most of us are familiar with the Politically Correct (PC) World View. William Deresiewicz describes the view, which he calls the “religion of success,” as follows:

There is a right way to think and a right way to talk, and also a right set of things to think and talk about. Secularism is taken for granted. Environmentalism is a sacred cause. Issues of identity—principally the holy trinity of race, gender, and sexuality—occupy the center of concern.

There are other beliefs that go with this religion of success:

  • Wind and solar will save us.
  • Electric cars will make transportation possible indefinitely.
  • Our world leaders are all powerful.
  • Science has all of the answers.

To me, this story is pretty much equivalent to the article, “Earth Is Flat and Infinite, According to Paid Experts,” by Chris Hume in Funny Times. While the story is popular, it is just plain silly.

In this post, I explain why many popular understandings are just plain wrong. I cover several controversial topics, including environmentalism, peer-reviewed literature, and climate change models. This post pretty much excludes religion. It was added for people who find it hard to believe that a scientific article could also touch upon religion. If you want the complete discussion, as the post was originally written, please see this post

Myth 1: If there is a problem with the lack of any resource, including oil, it will manifest itself with high prices.

As we reach limits of oil or any finite resource, the problem we encounter is an allocation problem. 

What happens if economy stops growing

Figure 1. Two views of future economic growth. Created by author.

As long as the quantity of resources we can extract from the ground keeps rising faster than population, there is no problem with limits. The tiny wedge that each person might get from these growing resources represents more of that resource, on average. Citizens can reasonably expect that future pension promises will be paid from the growing resources. They can also expect that, in the future, the shares of stock and the bonds that they own can be redeemed for actual goods and services.

If the quantity of resources starts to shrink, the problem we have is almost a “musical chairs” type of problem.

Figure 2. Circle of chairs arranged for game of musical chairs. Source

In each round of a musical chairs game, one chair is removed from the circle. The players in the game must walk around the outside of the circle. When the music stops, all of the players scramble for the remaining chairs. Someone gets left out.

The players in today’s economic system include

  • High paid (or elite) workers
  • Low paid (or non-elite) workers
  • Businesses
  • Governments
  • Owners of assets (such as stocks, bonds, land, buildings) who want to sell them and exchange them for today’s goods and services

If there is a shortage of a resource, the standard belief is that prices will rise and either more of the resource will be found, or substitution will take place. Substitution only works in some cases: it is hard to think of a substitute for fresh water. It is often possible to substitute one energy product for another. Overall, however, there is no substitute for energy. If we want to heat a substance to produce a chemical reaction, we need energy. If we want to move an object from place to place, we need energy. If we want to desalinate water to produce more fresh water, this also takes energy.

The world economy is a self-organized networked system. The networked system includes businesses, governments, and workers, plus many types of energy, including human energy. Workers play a double role because they are also consumers. The way goods and services are allocated is determined by “market forces.” In fact, the way these market forces act is determined by the laws of physics. These market forces determine which of the players will get squeezed out if there is not enough to go around.

Non-elite workers play a pivotal role in this system because their number is so large. These people are the chief customers for goods, such as homes, food, clothing, and transportation services. They also play a major role in paying taxes, and in receiving government services.

History says that if there are not enough resources to go around, we can expect increasing wage and wealth disparity. This happens because increased use of technology and more specialization are workarounds for many kinds of problems. As an economy increasingly relies on technology, the owners and managers of the technology start receiving higher wages, leaving less for the workers without special skills. The owners and managers also tend to receive income from other sources, such as interest, dividends, capital gains, and rents.

When there are not enough resources to go around, the temptation is to use technology to replace workers, because this reduces costs. Of course, a robot does not need to buy food or a car. Such an approach tends to push commodity prices down, rather than up. This happens because fewer workers are employed; in total they can afford fewer goods. A similar downward push on commodity prices occurs if wages of non-elite workers stagnate or fall.

If wages of non-elite workers are lower, governments find themselves in increasing difficulty because they cannot collect enough taxes for all of the services that they are asked to provide. History shows that governments often collapse in such situations. Major defaults on debt are another likely outcome (Figure 3). Pension holders are another category of recipients who are likely to be “left out” when the game of musical chairs stops.

Figure 3 – Created by Author.

The laws of physics strongly suggest that if we are reaching limits of this type, the economy will collapse. We know that this happened to many early economies. More recently, we have witnessed partial collapses, such as the Depression of the 1930s. The Depression occurred when the price of food dropped because mechanization eliminated a significant share of human hand-labor. While this change reduced the price of food, it also had an adverse impact on the buying-power of those whose jobs were eliminated.

The collapse of the Soviet Union is another example of a partial collapse. This collapse occurred as a follow-on to the low oil prices of the 1980s. The Soviet Union was an oil exporter that was affected by low oil prices. It could continue to produce for a while, but eventually (1991) financial problems caught up with it, and the central government collapsed.

Figure 4. Oil consumption, production, and inflation-adjusted price, all from BP Statistical Review of World Energy, 2015.

Low prices are often a sign of lack of affordability. Today’s oil, coal, and natural gas prices tend to be too low for today’s producers. Low energy prices are deceptive because their initial impact on the economy seems to be favorable. The catch is that after a time, the shortfall in funds for reinvestment catches up, and production collapses. The resulting collapse of the economy may look like a financial collapse or a governmental collapse.

Oil prices have been low since late 2014. We do not know how long low prices can continue before collapse. The length of time since oil prices have collapsed is now three years; we should be concerned.

Myth 2. (Related to Myth 1) If we wait long enough, renewables will become affordable.

The fact that wage disparity grows as we approach limits means that prices can’t be expected to rise as we approach limits. Instead, prices tend to fall as an increasing number of would-be buyers are frozen out of the market. If in fact energy prices could rise much higher, there would be huge amounts of oil, coal and gas that could be extracted.

Figure 5. IEA Figure 1.4 from its World Energy Outlook 2015, showing how much oil can be produced at various price levels, according to IEA models.

There seems to be a maximum affordable price for any commodity. This maximum affordable price depends to a significant extent on the wages of non-elite workers. If the wages of non-elite workers fall (for example, because of mechanization or globalization), the maximum affordable price may even fall.

Myth 3. (Related to Myths 1 and 2) A glut of oil indicates that oil limits are far away. 

A glut of oil means that too many people around the world are being “frozen out” of buying goods and services that depend on oil, because of low wages or a lack of job. It is a physics problem, related to ice being formed when the temperature is too cold. We know that this kind of thing regularly happens in collapses and partial collapses. During the Depression of the 1930s, food was being destroyed for lack of buyers. It is not an indication that limits are far away; it is an indication that limits are close at hand. The system can no longer balance itself correctly.

Myth 4: Wind and solar can save us.

The amount of energy (other than direct food intake) that humans require is vastly higher than most people suppose. Other animals and plants can live on the food that they eat or the energy that they produce using sunlight and water. Humans deviated from this simple pattern long ago–over 1 million years ago.

Unfortunately, our bodies are now adapted to the use of supplemental energy in addition to food. The use of fire allowed humans to develop differently than other primates. Using fire to cook some of our food helped in many ways. It freed up time that would otherwise be spent chewing, providing time that could be used for tool making and other crafts. It allowed teeth, jaws and digestive systems to be smaller. The reduced energy needed for maintaining the digestive system allowed the brain to become bigger. It allowed humans to live in parts of the world where they are not physically adapted to living.

In fact, back at the time of hunter-gatherers, humans already seemed to need three times as much energy total as a correspondingly sized primate, if we count burned biomass in addition to direct food energy.

Figure 6 – Created by author.

“Watts per Capita” is a measure of the rate at which energy is consumed. Even back in hunter-gatherer days, humans behaved differently than similar-sized primates would be expected to behave. Without considering supplemental energy, an animal-like human is like an always-on 100-watt bulb. With the use of supplemental energy from burned biomass and other sources, even in hunter-gatherer times, the energy used was equivalent to that of an always-on 300-watt bulb.

How does the amount of energy produced by today’s wind turbines and solar panels compare to the energy used by hunter-gatherers? Let’s compare today’s wind and solar output to the 200 watts of supplemental energy needed to maintain our human existence back in hunter-gatherer times (difference between 300 watts per capita and 100 watts per capita). This assumes that if we were to go back to hunting and gathering, we could somehow collect food for everyone, to cover the first 100 watts per capita. All we would need to do is provide enough supplemental energy for cooking, heating, and other very basic needs, so we would not have to deforest the land.

Conveniently, BP gives the production of wind and solar in “terawatt hours.” If we take today’s world population of 7.5 billion, and multiply it by 24 hours a day, 365.25 days per year, and 200 watts, we come to needed energy of 13,149 terawatt hours per year. In 2016, the output of wind was 959.5 terawatt hours; the output of solar was 333.1 terawatt hours, or a total of 1,293 terawatt hours. Comparing the actual provided energy (1,293 tWh) to the required energy of 13,149 tWh, today’s wind and solar would provide only 9.8% of the supplemental energy needed to maintain a hunter-gatherer level of existence for today’s population. 

Of course, this is without considering how we would continue to create wind and solar electricity as hunter-gatherers, and how we would distribute such electricity. Needless to say, we would be nowhere near reproducing an agricultural level of existence for any large number of people, using only wind and solar. Even adding water power, the amount comes to only 40.4% of the added energy required for existence as hunter gatherers for today’s population.

Many people believe that wind and solar are ramping up rapidly. Starting from a base of zero, the annual percentage increases do appear to be large. But relative to the end point required to maintain any reasonable level of population, we are very far away. A recent lecture by Energy Professor Vaclav Smil is titled, “The Energy Revolution? More Like a Crawl.”

Myth 5. Evaluation methods such as “Energy Returned on Energy Invested” (EROI) and “Life Cycle Analyses (LCA)” indicate that wind and solar should be acceptable solutions. 

These approaches are concerned about how the energy used in creating a given device compares to the output of the device. The problem with these analyses is that, while we can measure “energy out” fairly well, we have a hard time determining total “energy in.” A large share of energy use comes from indirect sources, such as roads that are shared by many different users.

A particular problem occurs with intermittent resources, such as wind and solar. The EROI analyses available for wind and solar are based on analyses of these devices as stand-alone units (perhaps powering a desalination plant, on an intermittent basis). On this basis, they appear to be reasonably good choices as transition devices away from fossil fuels.

EROI analyses don’t handle the situation well when there is a need to add expensive infrastructure to compensate for the intermittency of wind and solar. This situation tends to happen when electricity is added to the grid in more than small quantities. One workaround for intermittency is adding batteries; another is overbuilding the intermittent devices, and using only the portion of intermittent electricity that comes at the time of day and time of year when it is needed. Another approach involves paying fossil fuel providers for maintaining extra capacity (needed both for rapid ramping and for the times of year when intermittent resources are inadequate).

Any of these workarounds is expensive and becomes more expensive, the larger the percentage of intermittent electricity that is added. Euan Mearns recently estimated that for a particular offshore wind farm, the cost would be six times as high, if battery backup sufficient to even out wind fluctuations in a single month were added. If the goal were to even out longer term fluctuations, the cost would no doubt be higher. It is difficult to model what workarounds would be needed for a truly 100% renewable system. The cost would no doubt be astronomical.

When an analysis such as EROI is prepared, there is a tendency to leave out any cost that varies with the application, because such a cost is difficult to estimate. My background is in actuarial work. In such a setting, the emphasis is always on completeness because after the fact, it will become very clear if the analyst left out any important insurance-related cost. In EROI and similar analyses, there is much less of a tieback to the real world, so an omission may never be noticed. In theory, EROIs are for multiple purposes, including ones where intermittency is not a problem. The EROI modeler is not expected to consider all cases.

Another way of viewing the issue is as a “quality” issue. EROI theory generally treats all types of energy as equivalent (including coal, oil, natural gas, intermittent electricity, and grid-quality electricity). From this perspective, there is no need to correct for differences in types of energy output. Thus, it makes perfect sense to publish EROI and LCA analyses that seem to indicate that wind and solar are great solutions, without any explanation regarding the likely high real-world cost associated with using them on the electric grid.

Myth 6. Peer reviewed articles give correct findings.

The real story is that peer reviewed articles need to be reviewed carefully by those who use them. There is a very significant chance that errors may have crept in. This can happen because of misinterpretation of prior peer reviewed articles, or because prior peer reviewed articles were based on “thinking of the day,” which was not quite correct, given what has been learned since the article was written. Or, as indicated by the example in Myth 5, the results of peer reviewed articles may be confusing to those who read them, in part because they are not written for any particular audience.

The way university research is divided up, researchers usually have a high level of specialized knowledge about one particular subject area. The real world situation with the world economy, as I mentioned in my discussion of Myth 1, is that the economy is a self-organized networked system. Everything affects everything else. The researcher, with his narrow background, doesn’t understand these interconnections. For example, energy researchers don’t generally understand economic feedback loops, so they tend to leave them out. Peer reviewers, who are looking for errors within the paper itself, are likely to miss important feedback loops as well.

To make matters worse, the publication process tends to favor results that suggest that there is no energy problem ahead. This bias can come through the peer review process. One author explained to me that he left out a certain point from a paper because he expected that some of his peer reviewers would come from the Green Community; he didn’t want to say anything that might offend such a reviewer.

This bias can also come directly from the publisher of academic books and articles. The publisher is in the business of selling books and journal articles; it does not want to upset potential buyers of its products. One publisher made it clear to me that its organization did not want any mention of problems that seem to be without a solution. The reader should be left with the impression that while there may be issues ahead, solutions are likely to be found.

In my opinion, any published research needs to be looked at very carefully. It is very difficult for an author to move much beyond the general level of understanding of his audience and of likely reviewers. There are financial incentives for authors to produce PC reports, and for publishers to publish them. In many cases, articles from blogs may be better resources than academic articles because blog authors are under less pressure to write PC reports.

Myth 7. Climate models give a good estimate of what we can expect in the future.

There is no doubt that climate is changing. But is all of the hysteria about climate change really the correct story?

Our economy, and in fact the Earth and all of its ecosystems, are self-organized networked systems. We are reaching limits in many areas at once, including energy, fresh water, the number of fish that can be extracted each year from oceans, and metal ore extraction. Physical limits are likely to lead to financial problems, as indicated in Figure 3. The climate change modelers have chosen to leave all of these issues out of their models, instead assuming that the economy can continue to grow as usual until 2100. Leaving out these other issues clearly can be expected to overstate the impact of climate change.

The International Energy Agency is very influential with respect to which energy issues are considered. Between 1998 and 2000, it did a major flip-flop in the importance of energy limits. The IEA’s 1998 World Energy Outlook devotes many pages to discussing the possibility of inadequate oil supplies in the future. In fact, near the beginning, the report says,

Our analysis of the current evidence suggests that world oil production from conventional sources could peak during the period 2010 to 2020.

The same report also mentions Climate Change considerations, but devotes many fewer pages to these concerns. The Kyoto Conference had taken place in 1997, and the topic was becoming more widely discussed.

In 1999, the IEA did not publish World Energy Outlook. When the IEA published the World Energy Outlook for 2000, the report suddenly focused only on Climate Change, with no mention of Peak Oil. The USGS World Petroleum Assessment 2000 had recently been published. It could be used to justify at least somewhat higher future oil production.

I will be the first to admit that the “Peak Oil” story is not really right. It is a halfway story, based on a partial understanding of the role physics plays in energy limits. Oil supply does not “run out.” Peak Oilers also did not understand that physics governs how markets work–whether prices rise or fall, or oscillate. If there is not enough to go around, some of the would-be buyers will be frozen out. But Climate Change, as our sole problem, or even as our major problem, is not the right story, either. It is another halfway story.

One point that both Peak Oilers and the IEA missed is that the world economy doesn’t really have the ability to cut back on the use of fossil fuels significantly, without the world economy collapsing. Thus, the IEA’s recommendations regarding moving away from fossil fuels cannot work. (Shifting energy use among countries is fairly easy, however, making individual country CO2 reductions appear more beneficial than they really are.) The IEA would be better off talking about non-fuel changes that might reduce CO2, such as eating vegetarian food, eliminating flooded rice paddies, and having smaller families. Of course, these are not really issues that the International Energy Association is concerned about.

The unfortunate truth is that on any difficult, interdisciplinary subject, we really don’t have a way of making a leap from lack of knowledge of a subject, to full knowledge of a subject, without a number of separate, partially wrong, steps. The IPCC climate studies and EROI analyses both fall in this category, as do Peak Oil reports.

The progress I have made on figuring out the energy limits story would not have been possible without the work of many other people, including those doing work on studying Peak Oil and those studying EROI. I have also received a lot of “tips” from readers of OurFiniteWorld.com regarding additional topics I should investigate. Even with all of this help, I am sure that my version of the truth is not quite right. We all keep learning as we go along.

There may indeed be details of this particular climate model that are not correct, although this is out of my area of expertise. For example, the historical temperatures used by researchers seem to need a lot of adjustment to be usable. Some people argue that the historical record has been adjusted to make the historical record fit the particular model used.

There is also the issue of truing up the indications to where we are now. I mentioned the problem earlier of EROI indications not having any real world tie; climate model indications are not quite as bad, but they also seem not to be well tied to what is actually happening.

Myth 8. Our leaders are all knowing and all powerful.

We are fighting a battle against the laws of physics. Expecting our leaders to win in the battle against the laws of physics is expecting a huge amount. Some of the actions of our leaders seem extraordinarily stupid. For example, if falling interest rates have postponed peak oil, then proposing to raise interest rates, when we have not fixed the underlying oil depletion problem, seems very ill-advised.

It is the Laws of Physics that govern the world economy. The Laws of Physics affect the world economy in many ways. The economy is a dissipative structure. Energy inputs allow the economy to remain in an “out of equilibrium state” (that is, in a growing state), for a very long period.

Eventually the ability of any economy to grow must come to an end. The problem is that it requires increasing amounts of energy to fight the growing “entropy” (higher energy cost of extraction, need for growing debt, and rising pollution levels) of the system. The economy must come to an end, just as the lives of individual plants and animals (which are also dissipative structures) must come to an end.


We are facing a battle against the laws of physics which we are unlikely to win. Our leaders would like us to think that it can be won quite easily, but it cannot be.  Climate change is presented as our only and most important problem, but this is not really the case. Our problem is that the financial system and energy systems are tightly connected. We are likely to have serious financial problems as we hit limits of many kinds, at more or less the same time.

Our leaders are not really as powerful as we would like. Even our scientific findings practically never come in perfect form. Our knowledge generally comes in a series of steps, which includes revisions to early ideas. At this time, it doesn’t look as though we have figured out a way to work around our rising need for energy and the problem with rising entropy.


About Gail Tverberg

My name is Gail Tverberg. I am an actuary interested in finite world issues - oil depletion, natural gas depletion, water shortages, and climate change. Oil limits look very different from what most expect, with high prices leading to recession, and low prices leading to financial problems for oil producers and for oil exporting countries. We are really dealing with a physics problem that affects many parts of the economy at once, including wages and the financial system. I try to look at the overall problem.
This entry was posted in Financial Implications and tagged , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

1,453 Responses to Why political correctness fails – Why what we know ‘for sure’ is wrong (Ex Religion)

  1. Rob Bell says:

    Human beings are born with only two fears. The fear of falling and loud noises. Everything else is conditioned through their environment.

  2. jerry says:

    Another interesting expose was a new documentary on the Vietnam War on TV. Very well done in four parts. The last one however brought home the soon coming oil crisis in a new light by revealing the how and why Vietnam War ultimately came to an end. Washington simply didn’t have the stomach for it anymore or the money because what was occurring that took precedent? The economy of the early 1970’s which was falling apart and of course the oil embargo hmmm? The docu didn’t mention oil per se just the trouble brewing in the Middle East. For those of us who can make the connections however oil played the significant part surely. Washington just couldn’t afford to go to war anymore.

    • yt75 says:

      Once again people should know here that the big story around oil in 1970 isn’t the “oil embargo” (never effective from KSA to the US especially for vietnam), but the US peak, typically below :

      • I would very much agree that the problem was the drop in US oil production, not the oil embargo. Also, wages were rising very rapidly in the early 1970s (partly because women were joining the labor force). These rapidly rising wages enabled a price spike that disrupted many businesses. Price controls created more confusion.

      • jerry says:

        apologies that is what was on my mind actually and the TV series on Vietnam really brought home the issue of oil or rather the lack of it causing some serious economic problems for the Ford administration. It never mentioned it directly though just Middle East troubles.

    • The most fascinating result of this war is that nowadays most of Vietnamese prefer US over China. If you put aside that component of very long term historical connotations against Chinese influence, you will suddenly get to the core message, why such a perverse attitude can ever exist few decades after unbelievable carnage.

      And if you answered correctly that question, you will already have the answer for why the global collapse will take such a long time, than previously thought, predicted estimated.

    • zenny says:

      Every one that I talk with says that the Ken Burns doc was spot on…I found it full of holes and pure garbage.

  3. Tim Groves says:

    Would you buy a used full-body scanner from this man?

    • Slow Paul says:

      Very interesting indeed… But this kind of flies in the face of the POTUS and his overall aggressive demeanor and tweeting etc. I would be more inclined to believe this was a false flag with “Obomba” or “Killary” in charge.

    • Mark says:

      I agree there is a lot of missing and mis information. The bullets and death were quite real though, There is an aftermath video full of blood and death by what appears to be a “gore collector” that was taken post triage, but before the place was secured.
      How much motive do you need in a county and world that is FUBAR?

      • Greg Machala says:

        You would think the news media would have been on-scene and live where the most carnage occurred. That does seem to be the norm for the US news media. One would expect to see a lot of blood spatter on a lot of people so that should have made for some great news shock and awe stories. But, all I saw was panels of experts talking about it. Seems off.

        It is moot though, as I don’t trust anything I see or read anymore. I need to read more sources about this incident and form my own opinion of what happened. We truly live in a FUBAR world.

        • Rendar says:

          Came across this one, from March 2012: “The NDAA Legalizes The Use Of Propaganda On The US Public”


          “The newest version of the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) includes an amendment that would legalize the use of propaganda on the American public, reports Michael Hastings of BuzzFeed.

          The amendment — proposed by Mac Thornberry (R-Texas) and Adam Smith (D-Wash.) and passed in the House last Friday afternoon — would effectively nullify the Smith-Mundt Act of 1948, which explicitly forbids information and psychological operations aimed at influencing U.S. public opinion.”

          IO [Information Operations] are primarily used to target foreign audiences, but Davis cites numerous senior leaders who want to (in the words of Colonel Richard B. Leap) ‘protect a key friendly center of gravity, to wit US national will’ by repealing the Smith-Mundt Act to allow the direct deployment of these tactics on the American public.”

          • Greg Machala says:

            “We’ll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false.” – CIA Director William Casey at an early February 1981 meeting of the newly elected President Reagan with his new cabinet secretaries to report to him on what they had learned about their agencies in the first couple of weeks of the administration.

            • Rendar says:

              If we consider:
              1. NDAA was amended in 2012 to legalize the use of propaganda on the American public.
              2. There is no legal recourse for the American public when it comes to challenging this propaganda – whether that be filing suit against the US government or the news outlets.
              Why would a false flag/hoax in the US require any actual killing? Why would the US government break the law when they can legally subject the American public to propaganda and the American public cannot legally fight back?

            • Fast Eddy says:

              Why did the have to invent WMD in Iraq? Why didn’t they just say look – Saddam pissed us off – we want the oil — we are going to go get it?

              At the end of the day the El ders hide behind this facade they refer to as democracy …. one of the key protocols is NEVER come out from behind the curtain — because if you do that you become a target when the masses are unhappy.

              If the mandate from heaven is breached — they want your head….

              With democracy you put figureheads up for public consumption — puppets…. if things go wrong your puppet is vilified — nobody even knows you exist — and they vote the bastard out!!!

              So you need to keep the public onside when you carry out your Machiavellian agendas…. you need to maintain the illusion of democracy …. you need to get the public on board…

              Otherwise if people vote out one bastard and the next bastard continued with the same policies they would start to question democracy and look for the man behind the curtain.

              Look at Bush and Obama — Obama started and continued more wars than Bush …. but is Obama vilified? Nope. All because of good PR.

            • Mark says:

              We’re neck deep in propaganda, legal or not, and if you stand up, your will be shot down.

          • In other words, the nonsense about technology will save us is perfectly OK.

        • J. H. Wyoming says:

          Where are all the grieving families? I think we can safely say the media was told to keep the carnage and emotions to a minimum and keep the analysis to a maximum. Sort of unusual for a media hell bent on delving into every nuance of emotional pain which people seem to love to be entertained by.

          One thing is certain, the blood of this incident is on the hands of the NRA & GOP, stop, period, ipso facto. Why not include the right to own an Apache helicopter for self defense? Maybe that should be a right as well. What about mortar launchers w/mortars? Why restrict the ability to kill masses of people if that is an American right? What about stinger missiles? I want a modern fully equipped tank – Maybe we should just let people have anything they want. Why limit it to military style machine guns? Grenades – I want grenades! What about naval ships like a heavily armed cruiser. I’m sure some wealthy billionaire would like one of those for self defense and to use for his going away party. “There are reports of a navy cruiser in a civilian harbor in Sausalito. Yes, he has opened fire and casualties are occurring. Oh the carnage!!!” “Yes, Steve, however it is a proven fact that whenever anyone wants to exit their current existence, they have an American right to take as many people with them as they can afford in military and or naval equipment.”

          • Kim says:

            How may people defend themselves in a state of tyranny? What in your opinion are the limits of self defense? May we not defend ourselves at all? Or must we simply trust the government has our best interests at heart and have faith in that?

            If it is not clear to you that our lawmakers are completely insane, you might like to read the following.


            And as you well know, many believe that it was in fact the government or security services (who are powerful and evil and beyond punishment) that was behind this incident.

            And is that too hard to believe, or at least suspect? Bcs every evidence of history is that the government and politicians are in fact at the epicenter of almost every evil wherever they are found.

            • Fast Eddy says:

              Gov. Jerry Brown signed a bill Friday that lowers from a felony to a misdemeanor the crime of knowingly exposing a sexual partner to HIV without disclosing the infection. The measure also applies to those who give blood without telling the blood bank that they are HIV-positive.

              Snowflakes in ACTION!

              How dare we stigmatize anyone …. how dare we persecute anyone …. we need to treat all humans equally!!!

              While they are at it … how about these MORE onic F789s pass a law that allows those who get infected by some scum bag piece of sh it….. be allowed to shoot the scum bags in the head?

        • Fast Eddy says:

          Something is most definitely off.

    • Rob Bell says:

      What’s the point of the government creating a false flag. There has been 1500 mass shooting in the last 1700 days. There were even six ones just last week before Vegas happened.

      • Rendar says:

        Great question! Hell if I know. However, once again, here’s a list of admitted false flags (carried out by various countries) which include motives:


        Possible motives for this latest, extremely promoted event:
        1. push for increased gun control. Ultimately a less-armed public would be desirable to a governing body staring down the barrel of decreasing oil and other resources.
        2. push the classic narrative of the lone gunman – someone who just loses their mind inexplicably. The next shooter could be your neighbor. The quiet one who always seemed so mellow. Be sure to always be on edge. Remember those helpful color-coded terror threat levels during the Bush era.
        3. Racial divide and conquer:
        “Stephen Paddock is a White Male Mass Shooter. That Makes Him Typical”
        “How America Has Silently Accepted the Rage of White Men”
        “The White Privilege of the ‘Lone Wolf’ Shooter”
        4. Profit motive: drive gun sales and bump stock sales through threatening to enact legislation:
        “Bump stocks are selling briskly since Vegas attack, some sellers say”
        “Why Investors Bet on Gun Sales After a Mass Shooting”

        5… here, you can try the next one.

      • Mark says:

        Your opening up a can of worms 🙂
        Simply, the narrative I’ve heard is to “clamp down” and more homeland security and less privacy. My thinking is that even if that is so, (or not wasting a crisis) no one really cares. As long as they have their devices and easy living, so what? Even weed is legal in NV, go ahead and search me.

      • Fast Eddy says:

        500+ people is a big deal…..

        You know the first thing I thought when I heard that this guy had supposedly hauled enough weapons into his hotel room to equip a small army?

        1. Why would he bring so many guns into the room — you can only fire one weapon at a time … and it takes only a second or two to swap in new clips? Why risk getting caught hauling in so many when one – with a back up would be sufficient for the job at hand? Do soldiers in the field bring two dozen machine guns with them/

        Why would he do this?

        2. Now I am thinking that hotels are going to go overboard now and require screening of all luggage. I stay in hotels a fair bit and all I could think about was the pointless hassles — any would-be mass-murderer would simply avoid hotels — why not just rent an apartment in a building off of AirBNB instead….

        And then I watched this

        Now I am not saying this was the motive ….but….

        You’ve got a rumpled quite wealthy retired accountant — with two dozen weapons in a hotel room… opening fire on a large crowd of people….

        Something is very wrong with that picture….

        Think fake WMD … think Malaysian Air …. think gassing women and children in Syria … think JFK…. think Gulf of Tonkin…. think Operation Northwoods and Operation Gladio ….

        Think 7.5 billion useless eaters who will all die at some point …. what’s the big deal about offing some of them ….. if the ends justifies the means…..

        Really – so long as the people offed are strangers if you pulled the ultimate trigger – who cares?

        Heck our dog killed 500 babies in Iraq….

    • ftp says:

      “Mainstream media manipulation tactics”
      Unlike the so called alternative media which as we all know would never ever sink that low… Just think of what would these right-wing conspiracy nuts would say had the shooter not been white.

      “Initial media stories conflict official story”
      So what? The evil mainstream media are incompetent hacks that cannot be trusted, yet it is highly suspicious when they get the facts wrong in the immediate aftermath of a random event?

      “No one allowed to see dead bodies”
      Good Lord! What’s next, crisis actors?

      • Fast Eddy says:

        Syria CIA gas victims — real bodies…. 🙂

        • ftp says:

          Assad and his generals could torture children on camera, and you lunatics would still be convinced it’s a conspiracy by the CIA.

          • Rendar says:

            Speaking of legalized anti-Syrian propaganda:

            “OOPS! CNN Caught In Blatant Propaganda Using Young Girl”

          • Fast Eddy says:

            Yep – I would assume the CIA found a lookalike — or had Hollywood fake the scene….

          • Jesse James says:

            Yes I distinctly remember a Secretary of State showing Saddam gassing his own people on camera. I must be an idiot to not believe it! The WMDs were never found but a convenient war started because of it. You are a gov/war shill.

      • Kim says:

        You ever hear of the “White Helmets”? All an act. They almost got the Nobel Peace Prize. As a compensation for missing that, they got an Oscar.

        My friend, it’s all lies, and you are living in the middle of them. Now get back to the tv and get your programming. And just forget I said anything unpleasant at all.

        • ftp says:

          A tyrant is a tyrant, regardless of the “MSM”s opinion. The syrian regime especially at the beginning of the war, tortured children and political opponents alike, and commited numerous war crimes (Ghouta gas attack comes to mind) but it is somehow okay because they a) are a secular regime and b) seemingly oppose the “US imperialists”. You people don’t trust the american and european mainstream media, that’s fine, but why don’t you apply the same skeptic behaviour to so-called “alternative” and dubious sources such as zerohedge? Don’t they spew out propaganda as well? Are they perfectly unbiased? Take a look at the comments on that site, these people are much more “indoctrinatable” and prone to manipulation (and hateful, that goes without saying) than the average joe who listens to the news every once in a while. At least the latter is not so utterly convinced he has just “seen the light” and has risen so above mankind just by reading news stories on the internet!
          And no, I am not in favor of neo-colonialism and western intervention of any kind, and that’s including the russians who are western too and have nothing to do in the region either.

          • Jesse James says:

            FTP shill, the Claim that a “dictator” mistreats his own people is one of the standard excuses to implement “regime change” or “nation building”, all an excuse to invade and kill and overthrow a government, resulting in large scale death and suffering. All smoke and mirrors. All fake. Just like you.

            • ftp says:

              “the Claim that a “dictator” mistreats his own people (…)”

              It is true in the case of Syria. There was an uprising that was brutally repressed and it ended in civil war. It did not have to be like this, but the government reacted poorly (and that’s an understatement) in 11-12. The regime would have been toppled by now had it not been for western intervention.

              Your conspiracy nonsense is tiresome, not every single event in the world is a masterful plan devised by the CIA, the MI6 or God knows what.

            • Rendar says:

              You’re right to question Zero Hedge. There’s a history of tension within their ranks:


              Also, the copyright at the bottom of their homepage states:

              Copyright ©2009-2017 ZeroHedge.com/ABC Media, LTD

              Is that the American Broadcasting Company (ABC)? Is it a foreign media company? So far I haven’t found answers to these questions.

              The challenge for media consumers is to separate the wheat from the chaff. Valuable information can be found in Zero Hedge articles, MSM articles, blog posts, social media, etc.

              There is an information war going on, however. These Big Six:

              against anyone and everyone who can share and analyze news information online.

              This seems to be why our leaders are so concerned about “Fake News” and why British Prime Minister Theresa May often calls for restricting the internet. Controlling “The Narrative,” that is, the big one, the one that ends up becoming official history, is paramount to shepherding society. The trouble for our leaders at present is that anyone can go online and publish their own counter-narrative. As of June 2017 there are over 3.8 billion internet users in the world (http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats.htm). Not only is that a large number of people who can challenge the veracity of The Narrative but it is also a large number of people for the creators of The Narrative to win over. With each hit the MSM takes to their credibility (e.g. falsifying WMD evidence, promoting false flag attacks, etc.) the harder it becomes for our leaders to prop up The Narrative; and this in turn drives people toward alternative sources of information in the effort to find out what is true.

            • Fast Eddy says:

              Notice how most MSM removed the comments sections on their sites a couple of years ago….

            • Jesse James says:

              The people of Syria are winning their freedom, freedom from a future ruled by ISIS and like Libya’s current reality.
              So sorry my comments to you are tiresome. Are you triggered? Are you weary of hearing the truth? Perhaps you would like to go to a safe space.

          • Fast Eddy says:

            Oh look… we have a lost DelusisTANI on FW….. come along you stuuupid igggnorant MOOOreon…. Fast Eddy will help you get back home…..


            • Nope.avi says:

              “Notice how most MSM removed the comments sections on their sites a couple of years ago…”
              I noticed it following the election of Donald Trump. Ideologically, it seemed to be happening more on the “politically correct” sites with a high presence of women. Women, in general, do not deal well with criticism, especially from men.

  4. The Second Coming says:

    Lydia Harvey and her family, who live in Whanganui, New Zealand, grow their own fruit and vegetables and keep chickens for eggs.
    ‘WE GROW, WE MAKE, WE SALVAGE EVERY LAST SCRAP’Meet the mum-of-four who spend NOTHING on groceries by growing everything the family eats and bartering what they don’t need
    Lydia and husband decided to radically change the family’s lifestyle after youngest son Ashton was diagnosed with coeliac disease at the age of three.

    She told the New Zealand Herald: “I started wondering why our food was making him sick. And then I started asking questions – reading all the ingredients on packets and googling anything that I didn’t understand.
    make do with what we have. We grow, we make, we salvage every last scrap to be used for our chickens, our worm farm, even all our veg scraps to make stock.

    “You feel pleasure in returning a favour or just swapping something like free range eggs for some spuds.
    “Things don’t have to be so difficult, we don’t need things, we want things.
    Now, a big round of applause!

    • Unfortunately, what you need is to be able to cook at least part of your food. Do you also provide all of the fuel you need for cooking?

      • The Second Coming says:

        Cooking….various non fire methods are available, such as,
        Quicklime fireless cooking, slaking lime with water for heat without fire
        Heap of small grey chunks of limeI was intrigued to discover a medieval version of today’s self-heating cans of soup, beans, and coffee. In a Welsh museum is an Anglo-Norman double pot, a smaller cooking pot inside a bigger one, designed for cooking without any need for lighting a fire. In the space between the two pots you could set off a chemical reaction by mixing chunks of quicklime (photo right) with water. It created heat to cook the food inside the sealed inner pot.
        Can with button in white plastic base Quicklime, also called lime or unslaked lime, is what’s inside many of today’s self-heating cans too. (More explanation at bottom of page.)
        A recipe from 13th century England explains how to cook with a pair of pots and no fire. It really was cooking, not just heating up pre-cooked food and drink:
        To cook meat without fire….
        Take a small earthenware pot with earthenware lid of the right size. Then take another pot, also earthenware, also with a suitable lid that fits well. This should be five fingers deeper than the first, and three fingers bigger round. Then take pork and chicken, cut them into nice pieces, get good spices and put them in, and some salt. Take the little pot with the meat in and put it inside the big pot. Set it upright, cover it with the lid and seal with damp, sticky soil, so nothing can come out. Then take lime that has not been slaked [quicklime], put it in the big pot full of water, but take care that no water gets into the small pot. Leave it alone for as long as it takes to go five to seven leagues. Then open your pots, and you will find your meat well and truly cooked.
        The original late 13th century recipe in French (A quire char saunz fu/A cuire chair sans feu) is in Hieatt and Jones’ Two Anglo-Norman Culinary Collections
        Also, techniques of fermentation and utilizing spices, as in India, fair well. Never mind solar cookers.

        • Jesse James says:

          Second, one thing you are forgetting is that serfs/slaves had to obtain and provide the lime. Yea, that is not close to self sufficient.

          • The Second Coming says:

            All I did was provide an example that was utilized in the past to cook food without wood.
            Rather clever and inventive by medieval peasants, don’t you think?
            Actually, these ancient people were far more intelligent in some ways in their manner of understanding their natural world and the materials in it, than the average modern individual.

            • Fast Eddy says:

              Sing along with Joan

            • Fast Eddy says:

              You are dead, You are dead
              You are dead, You are dead
              You are dead, You are dead
              Oh yes, You are Dead


            • Rendar says:

              Intriguing method. Thanks for sharing.

            • Jesse James says:

              Actually, thank you for sharing it. I had not been familiar with that technique. Have you heard about the technique to chill liquids or food using water filled sand and evaporation? I think the ancients had lots of skills we have lost.

            • The Second Coming says:

              Hi, Jesse, yes I have and grew up in a house with one called a pantry…My Grand Dad had one that was essentially a small isolated room adjacent to the kitchen facing north and was shaded by the sun. He kept an icebox there.
              Also, Peter Bane did one better…built an outdoor concrete above ground cistern with a room attached…maintained about 50 degrees F for most of the year.
              Its featured on YouTube.
              Here is an article I found that is also interesting in keeping cool..

              Folks years ago did OK without electric..we shall have to relearn to do so again in the very near future….I mean those of us who are fortunate enough to have it now..
              We forget An estimated 79 percent of the people in the Third World — the 50 poorest nations — have no access to electricity, despite decades of international development work..or 25% of the worlds population!

            • Fast Eddy says:

              Learn? How do you learn? When is there time to learn?

              The power goes off — you run out of food — there is no more food and you do what? Learn how to keep non-existent food cool?

              What you do not seem to understand is that these people learned over many generations — they evolved their ways of doing things. That as their BAU ….

              We are talking about a very abrupt end of our BAU … our BAU involves being 100% enclosed in a bubble — we know nothing about growing or storing food — nothing about how to live outside the bubble…. and when BAU goes down — our bubble bursts…. and we will be like babies dumped in the forest.

              Don’t believe me?

              Try the Fast Eddy challenge… you know the deal… no power no bought food no petrol no medicine … no BAU … for a month.

              I have put this challenge out there to every tough guy doomsy permy that has shown up on this site for the better part of two years now…. NOT a single one has tried it….

              Because just thinking about trying it frightens them…. because they know trying it would burst their delusion…. and drive them into deep despair…

              Try it.

              Otherwise stop bleating on about this nonsense.


            • Fast Eddy says:

              ‘We forget An estimated 79 percent of the people in the Third World — the 50 poorest nations — have no access to electricity’

              Bullshit — 99.999% of the world has access to electricity. Because most people own stuff produced by BAU — and that stuff was produced using…. you guessed it…. electricity.

              They also have access to petrol — they may not drive a car or a motorbike … but petrol is a big part of their lives — if they buy a spoon – petrol was involved…

              And they farm using petro chemical products — they are a big part of the green revolution – and the green revolution is all about petro chemicals…. from fertilizers to pesticides…. to diesel powered irrigation pumps….

              You haven’t a clue what you are talking about ….

            • The Second Coming says:

              Fast Eddy the Straw Man….

            • Fast Eddy says:

              Second Coming …. the MORE on.

          • The Second Coming says:

            Fast Eddy all encompassing reason that nothing will help…spent fuel rods..OY!

            • Fast Eddy says:

              The Fukushima nuclear catastrophe could have been far worse, it turns out, and experts say neither the nuclear industry nor its regulators are doing enough to prevent a calamitous nuclear fuel fire in America https://www.publicintegrity.org/2016/05/20/19712/scientists-say-nuclear-fuel-pools-around-country-pose-safety-and-health-risks

              Japan’s chief cabinet secretary called it “the devil’s scenario.” Two weeks after the 11 March 2011 earthquake and tsunami devastated the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant, causing three nuclear reactors to melt down and release radioactive plumes, officials were bracing for even worse. They feared that spent fuel stored in the reactor halls would catch fire and send radioactive smoke across a much wider swath of eastern Japan, including Tokyo. http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/05/burning-reactor-fuel-could-have-worsened-fukushima-disaster

              Assuming a 50-100% Cs137 release during a spent fuel fire, [8] the consequence of the Cs-137 exceed those of the Chernobyl accident 8-17 times (2MCi release from Chernobyl). Based on the wedge model, the contaminated land areas can be estimated. [9] For example, for a scenario of a 50% Cs-137 release from a 400 t SNF pool, about 95,000 km² (as far as 1,350 km) would be contaminated above 15 Ci/km² (as compared to 10,000 km² contaminated area above 15 Ci/km² at Chernobyl).

              A typical 1 GWe PWR core contains about 80 t fuels. Each year about one third of the core fuel is discharged into the pool. A pool with 15 year storage capacity will hold about 400 t spent fuel. To estimate the Cs-137 inventory in the pool, for example, we assume the Cs137 inventory at shutdown is about 0.1 MCi/tU with a burn-up of 50,000 MWt-day/tU, thus the pool with 400 t of ten year old SNF would hold about 33 MCi Cs-137. [7]

            • Fast Eddy says:

              Containing radiation equivalent to 14,000 times the amount released in the atomic bomb attack on Hiroshima 68 years ago, more than 1,300 used fuel rod assemblies packed tightly together need to be removed from a building that is vulnerable to collapse, should another large earthquake hit the area. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/14/us-japan-fukushima-insight-idUSBRE97D00M20130814

              The problem is if the spent fuel gets too close, they will produce a fission reaction and explode with a force much larger than any fission bomb given the total amount of fuel on the site. All the fuel in all the reactors and all the storage pools at this site (1760 tons of Uranium per slide #4) would be consumed in such a mega-explosion. In comparison, Fat Man and Little Boy weapons dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki contained less than a hundred pounds each of fissile material – See more at: http://www.dcbureau.org/20110314781/natural-resources-news-service/fission-criticality-in-cooling-ponds-threaten-explosion-at-fukushima.html

              Once the fuel is uncovered, it could become hot enough to cause the metal cladding encasing the uranium fuel to rupture and catch fire, which in turn could further heat up the fuel until it suffers damage. Such an event could release large amounts of radioactive substances, such as cesium-137, into the environment. This would start in more recently discharged spent fuel, which is hotter than fuel that has been in the pool for a longer time. A typical spent fuel pool in the United States holds several hundred tons of fuel, so if a fire were to propagate from the hotter to the colder fuel a radioactive release could be very large.

            • Fast Eddy says:

              According to Dr. Kevin Crowley of the Nuclear and Radiation Studies Board, “successful terrorist attacks on spent fuel pools, though difficult, are possible. If an attack leads to a propagating zirconium cladding fire, it could result in the release of large amounts of radioactive material.”[12] The Nuclear Regulatory Commission after the September 11, 2001 attacks required American nuclear plants “to protect with high assurance” against specific threats involving certain numbers and capabilities of assailants. Plants were also required to “enhance the number of security officers” and to improve “access controls to the facilities”.

              The committee judges that successful terrorist attacks on spent fuel pools, though difficult, are possible. If an attack leads to a propagating zirconium cladding fire, it could result in the release of large amounts of radioactive material. The committee concluded that attacks by knowledgeable terrorists with access to appropriate technical means are possible. The committee identified several terrorist attack scenarios that it believed could partially or completely drain a spent fuel pool and lead to zirconium cladding fires. Details are provided in the committee’s classified report. I cannot discuss the details here.


              If any of the spent fuel rods in the pools do indeed catch fire, nuclear experts say, the high heat would loft the radiation in clouds that would spread the radioactivity.

              “It’s worse than a meltdown,” said David A. Lochbaum, a nuclear engineer at the Union of Concerned Scientists who worked as an instructor on the kinds of General Electric reactors used in Japan. “The reactor is inside thick walls, and the spent fuel of Reactors 1 and 3 is out in the open.”

            • Fast Eddy says:

              If you don’t cool the spent fuel, the temperature will rise and there may be a swift chain reaction that leads to spontaneous combustion–an explosion and fire of the spent fuel assemblies. Such a scenario would emit radioactive particles into the atmosphere.

              Pick your poison. Fresh fuel is hotter and more radioactive, but is only one fuel assembly. A pool of spent fuel will have dozens of assemblies. One report from Sankei News said that there are over 700 fuel assemblies stored in one pool at Fukushima. If they all caught fire, radioactive particles—including those lasting for as long as a decade—would be released into the air and eventually contaminate the land or, worse, be inhaled by people. “To me, the spent fuel is scarier. All those spent fuel assemblies are still extremely radioactive,” Dalnoki-Veress says.

              It has been known for more than two decades that, in case of a loss of water in the pool, convective air cooling would be relatively ineffective in such a “dense-packed” pool. Spent fuel recently discharged from a reactor could heat up relatively rapidly to temperatures at which the zircaloy fuel cladding could catch fire and the fuel’s volatile fission product, including 30-year half-life Cs, would be released. The fire could well spread to older spent fuel. The long-term land-contamination consequences of such an event could be significantly worse than those from Chernobyl.


              Today there are 103 active nuclear power reactors in the U.S. They generate 2,000 metric tons of spent nuclear waste per year and to date have accumulated 71,862 tons of spent fuel, according to industry data.[vi] Of that total, 54,696 tons are stored in cooling pools and only 17,166 tons in the relatively safer dry cask storage. http://www.psr.org/environment-and-health/environmental-health-policy-institute/responses/the-growing-problem-of-spent-nuclear-fuel.html

            • Fast Eddy says:

              I can imagine the look on your face when you read that research — it is no doubt the same look that I see on the faces of people when I try to explain to them that renewable energy is total bull sh it …. that EVs are retardations….

              You know the look — it’s a cross between just plain dumb as a stump and the glaze-eyed look of someone off there face on a strong cocktail of party drugs. You know – like they are kinda there — but not….

              You know what causes that look? It is not that they are necessarily stuuupid — or on drugs… (although they might be one or both) …

              That is Mr Cognitive Dissonance kicking in …. his role is to dismiss facts when they threaten the mental well-being of his host.

              He steps in to block out reality — and to make sure you remain in your bubble — your very own Disney Land….

            • The Second Coming says:

              Sure Eddy, we heard it all before…your list of excuses….I mean “reasons”, to rant and rave, insult others that post here. Fine and dandy, but its to the point of being obnoxious and mean spirited. Remember an old timer Hippy by the name of Adam Turtle speaking to us permie wanna bees… Moved to Summertown, Tennessee way back in the 1970s with the other West Coast Hippies at the commune, “The Farm”. He pointed out those that quickly left had a certain overbearing superiority attitude toward the local folks.
              Now, perhaps these rural types were no as worldly as city people, that doesn’t mean they might possess a bit of know how and insight that just might be what you need to survive.
              You and I ain’t going to live forever, that’s for certain. We can only guess what tomorrow will bring, it might just surprise you!
              Here is Adam Turtle, listen, it might just save you

            • Fast Eddy says:

              What the f789 is that?

              You call that a response?

              I suppose in DelusiSTAN that it is…. you just bang your drums and chant and moan and dance about the campfire and shout inanities and congratulate yourselves as to how awesome you are.

              Did you ever consider that Adam was a f789ing more on… and that people half delusional showed up then realized just how absolutely stuuupid the entire idea was…. and walked out.

              Because it well and truly is a duuumb idea. It is koombaya full strength

              Maybe you might try to explain to me how I am wrong — and how 4000 spent fuel ponds are not an almost certain extinction event.

              Of course you won’t do that. Because you cannot. So you will just call me negative… and dismiss it like a good DelusiSTANI.


            • The Second Coming says:

              When it actually happens, I’ll deal with it. Its outta my hands.
              Maybe you should deal with so e things you can control

              I’ll bet you’ll do a lot of stupid things too, just like the rest of us!

            • Fast Eddy says:

              This is where intelligence + facts + logic can be helpful…. if one has them….

              Understanding that this is an extinction event — or at the very least will leave one wishing they were dead….

              One could either waste one’s time engaged in futile preparations for the end of BAU —- spending time and money on these preparations ….

              Or one could simply play endless hands of solitaire as one waits for the end of days…. this option is just as pointless as the first option….

              Or one could recognize the futility of the situation — and LL… Live Large. Live Life like every day is your last …. use the prepping cash and time to do what you always wanted to do…

              Now if your dream lifestyle is pulling weeds and building varmint fences and toiling under the hot sun — then by all means Just Do It…. but understand that this will not save you….

            • The Second Coming says:

              Well, Life is what you make it, and seems you are stuck in arrested development.

            • Fast Eddy says:

              Fast Eddy is stuck in reality —- and has taken the only reasonable option…..

              Buy hey — if it makes you feel good to Live the Delusion …. go for it…. but come the end of BAU … and the hordes arrive to tear up your garden and kill your animals… and rape and pillage…

              And when your skin starts to peel off (you won’t know why that is happening but it will be the radiation)….

              Please make sure to acknowledge at least to yourself…. Fast Eddy was right …. how could I have been so foolish wasting my time and cash on this nonsense.

      • grayfox says:

        They barter for things. Maybe they could barter for fuel?

        • The Second Coming says:

          Why, not?…they probably live near FE and since we already know he’s a terrible gardener, that’s something he can provide….
          Nah…. There is method of forestry that provides firewood called Coppice
          These firewood species grow rapidly, fix nitrogen, and re-sprout (coppice) quickly after cutting. All have high-quality firewood. They are thus a productive, self-fertilizing and perennial firewood source. Intensive blocks of these species can produce a tropical family’s cooking fuel needs on 0.15ha (0.37 acres; according to interviews with staff at both Las Cañadas and ECHO). Use of rocket stoves and other conservation technologies can reduce the area even further.

          Coppicing woody plants sequester carbon in their roots, and in soil organic matter. When compared with pine plantations and other destructively-harvested wood sources they are more climate-friendly. They also have much higher fuel production per acre than natural forest, and can substantially lighten the firewood harvest load on natural forest around

          • xabier says:

            Coppicing, pollarding, suckering: the best ways of maintaining a wood as a renewable (centuries, millenia-long) energy supplier -and for producing useful poles, willow and ash hurdles, etc.

            It’s all about harvesting the ‘underwood’, not growing big timber trees. 4 -20 year harvesting cycles.

            Mostly fell into disuse in Britain in the 18th century as coal became readily available (not because the wood was used up!) and the proper management of woods by woodmen was forgotten and ‘forestry’ and ‘foresters’ took over -ie clear-cutting of plantations.

            I live next to a small 13th century wood of this kind (in fact, quite possibly Saxon, or even Roman, as they had small industries near here using charcoal which must have been locally produced.

            Properly managed woods can survive for thousands of years.

            People who call anything else ‘renewable’ are smoking something. 🙂

            • The Second Coming says:

              Thanks Xavier, first encountered coppicing while visiting Stanley Joseph in Harborside , Maine, His book is a work of art and can be had for as little as $1.40 on Amazon
              A tribute to the everyday rewards of rural living. The authors record the rhythms of their work and days, along the way providing advice and instruction on dozens of traditional country arts and crafts. 250 full-color photos. A massive coffee table size original priced at $32.50 in early 1990s.
              You may enjoy reading the section of building a Coracle, (especially in Wales and Ireland) a small, round boat made of wickerwork covered with a watertight material, propelled with a paddle).
              One can use the coppice wood to build it!
              The article link features species of woody plants that are nitrogen fixing, thus fertilizing the soil.
              For someone interested in building up soil

              The Carbon Farming Solution: A Global Toolkit of Perennial Crops and Regenerative Agriculture Practices for Climate Change Mitigation and Food Security
              Eric Toensmeier is the award-winning author of Paradise Lot and Perennial Vegetables, and the co-author of Edible Forest Gardens. Eric is an appointed lecturer at Yale University, a Senior Fellow with Project Drawdown, and an international trainer. He presents in English and Spanish throughout the United States, Canada, Mexico, Guatemala, and the Caribbean. Eric has studied useful perennial plants and their roles in agroforestry systems for over two decades, and cultivates about 300 species in his urban garden. His writing can be viewed online at perennialsolutions.org.
              Most of the hard thinking work has been accomplished….not that we can contribute some of our own!, just have the willingness and attitude to “dance” with the transition.

            • Fast Eddy says:

              You do know that farming put us onto the treadmill to hell by providing surplus food leading to …

            • The Second Coming says:

              OK, Eddy…be my quest and stop “farming”….after all you are determined to assert you correctness. If you have a more intelligent manner to provide for our human needs, please reveal it. Once fossil fuel grown food disappears, I’ll bet most survivers will be gardeners and small scale husbandry. You might even witness the cultivation of rodents for food consumption. That should please your imagination.

              Oops, already being done, sorry.

            • Fast Eddy says:

              No they won’t.

              It will look like this:

              The financial system will at some point just stop on a dime — it will collapse.

              The power will go off — the petrol will stop flowing — the global economy will seize up – forever.

              The grocery stores will be looted and emptied within hours – and remain empty – forever.

              The masses will panic.

              Many will turn to extreme violence as they seek out whatever food supplies remain. They will kill for a can of beans – they will kill anyone who has a small hobby farm (assuming the collapse happens when the crops are ready…)

              Nobody is going to turn to farming.

              ‘Hey Jessica — the shops are empty — lets order some seeds on the internet and use the rest of our gasoline to drive to the country and start a farm! — but Thomas — what will we eat while we wait for the first crop to grow? — no problem let’s just kill the other farmers and take there food — I have a shotgun and 50 shells in the closet — but what about all the other people who will be wanting that farmers food? — you are right – let’s just off ourselves with the shotgun – better than starving to death!!!’

              Then of course there are 4000 spent fuel ponds that will boil away then blast the planet with the equivalent of 56,000,000 Hiroshima bombs of radiation (4,000 x 14,000 = 56M)

              Containing radiation equivalent to 14,000 times the amount released in the atomic bomb attack on Hiroshima 68 years ago, more than 1,300 used fuel rod assemblies packed tightly together need to be removed from a building that is vulnerable to collapse, should another large earthquake hit the area. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/14/us-japan-fukushima-insight-idUSBRE97D00M20130814

              Would you like some cesium with your carrots?

            • The Second Coming says:

              You have the “gift” of determining the future. If you read my comment I stated,
              “most survivers”…naturally, we all agree without fossil fuels a massive culling out of the human population will occur. Best learn now to raise those rodents, ferment food, select hot spices like in India to kill deadly food parasites, develop a coppice forest.
              Like to see prove me wrong and you pass through the post BAU bottleneck.
              Stranger things have happened.
              Let me know if you contact Lydia, LOL

            • Fast Eddy says:

              Nobody survives 56,000,000 Hiroshimas of radiation.

            • The Second Coming says:

              Agreed….we shall see if it comes about or not in our lifetime….if not, than what?

    • Fast Eddy says:

      I’ve got neighbours like this …. they proclaim that they only visit a grocery store perhaps once a month – to buy spices and maybe a bit of chocolate…

      Where does their water come from – roof collection into big plastic tanks!!! — then it is pumped into the house and into the gardens to irrigate during the very dry hot summer

      How do they keep weeds at bay? Oh — well — we have to admit … we spray. But we don’t apply anything to the plants themselves so we are kinda organic.

      Fertilizer? We have sheep — and make some compost — but we could never make enough so we have a truck load of compost dropped off every season.

      Seeds? We have tried many times to save seeds – but the saved seeds don’t grow! We just order online from King Seeds.

      What about winter frosts and their orchard? We keep the trees from dying using smoke pots — you put a bit of kerosene in them to create smoke to protect the trees.

      What about food for winter? Oh we are prolific preservers — we buy glass jars and replacement lids at Bunnings every year….

      And how do you keep warm in the winter? Well each spring we go up the hill and cut some trees with the chain saw and then rent a splitter then load everything on the trailer and truck ….and we have a nice supply of wood for the coming winter.

      Not to demean their effort — it is truly impressive….

      However this is hardly a self-sufficient situation …. far from it.

      BAU goes —- they will soon follow (when the preserves run out — or others take the preserves…)

      Keep in mind these are multi-generation farmers — they are not like me – transplants from the land of skyscrapers…. they know what they are doing…. it’s just that they too are completely reliant on BAU…..

      They delude themselves into believing they are self sufficient — just as Lydia does.

      • The Second Coming says:

        One must recognize the difference of self sufficiency, which in itself is a near impossible goal to achieve, and being self reliant. Self reliant is a empowering community building network that supports relations among neighbors. Its one thing to know neighbors and another to work with them to lighten the load; many hands do light labour. Its important to recognize ones strengths regarding abilities and talents. The is the best partnerships to be form with others.

        • Fast Eddy says:

          Wont be of any use post BAU ….

        • What all the naysayers refuse to see is that most of the input problems that cause the paradox of self sustained living today that they bring up will be gone when/if the time comes that self sufficiency is needed. Most “sustainers” (as I call them) are still forced to live in two very different worlds right now. The one Gail talks about where time is really one of the more valuable commodities around (for us workers anyway) and the other one where we are preparing for the next stage of life where things are not so inter-connected. They mention the use of modern day equipment as one example of these inputs but then fail to notice that the time restraints that force the use of that equipment will diminish greatly when things change. Many aspects of sustainability currently have zero or very low return on investment but will in fact have a much more massive return when other parts of the system collapse. Many of the problems I see brought up such as fencing for livestock will become almost a non-issue once mass personal transportation ceases.

          • People who are trying to grow crops generally don’t like other people’s livestock eating their crops. Without fencing, how do you propose to handle this problem.

            I have seen a lot of hand-made wooden fences in some places, it seems like Russia. Also rows of tightly planted bushes around fields, in India. Wouldn’t some workaround such as this still be needed?

            • I never implied that the livestock would be able to run free and devour whatever they wanted at will. When you had a flock of sheep before fences became mandatory you still had shepherds that drove them where they needed to be. Generally speaking however in a system without cheap energy the fence goes around the crops not around the livestock if you get my meaning. and the livestock is driven daily or seasonally to grazing grounds large enough to keep them interested and away from the crops..

              Funny you should mention that though. Not long ago I noticed a number of my free range, live and roost wherever they want around the farm hens had begun invading my neighbors’ bean field. I honestly never thought they would range that far but the dogs keep the predators away so the chickens get brave. Anyway I went over, took the neighbors some eggs to make amends for the hens scarfing up his bean seeds. Their answer was “they don’t eat any more than the other birds and we like seeing them out there”

              When time becomes less precious of a resource the balance of what is important shifts and a new harmony will be made. I agree with most of your observations, predictions and theories but the balance will be so very different many things we think will be important problems will indeed fix themselves with or without our help.

            • Fast Eddy says:

              Oh you won’t have to worry about your live stock…..

              I can look out my window and see that my neighbour has 6 very large cows grazing … and I know that just around the corner there are more neighbours with sheep – well over 1000 in total….

              Residing inside my locked container is an arsenal that could down all of them + a whole lot more…

              A range of high powered rifles and shot guns … and f789ing trunk of ammo ….

              I am sure there are plenty of people locked and loaded where you are too….

              Anyone got any good mutton recipes?

            • Fast Eddy says:

              This goes out to all those doomy preppies out there….

            • You need an awfully lot of fence, if individual families have small plots for gardens. I know that rabbits and deer are a problem where I live already.

              Also, even in Biblical times, shepherd was about the lowest status (paid?) job available. Someone could probably figure out the equation regarding how much the flock gained a day, in terms of meat and wool/hide value, and how that compares to the amount the shepherds need to be paid. I expect that unless food is a whole lot more expensive than today, it would be hard to justify hiring a shepherd.

            • I doubt a pay scale could really be put together for shepherds since in most cases it was a family type duty that one usually did for a while until the next family member moved into the position. Doesn’t really require a lot of skill either. The point is/was to drive the animals out far enough to be beyond the range of the tilled areas. In some cases they were out there for long periods and in others it was a daily thing. Mostly depends on terrain and the forage available. Fences do not have to be built they can be grown as they were in Europe and honestly I can tell you a person does not have to drive a flock of sheep far to where the flocks’ entire interest will be focused on what is there in front of them not what is 200 yards away being grown. Also sheep are really quite easy to lead once the dangers of the internal combustion engine are removed. The wild ones tend to follow the tamer ones and the smart/tamer ones will follow their human keepers like dogs honestly. The margin for error is too big to trust in their instinct with roads and the like but if you remove that danger the flock will generally stay together and go where it is lead and a straggler will let you know it is lost.

              The numbers of rabbits and such would quickly not be a problem. Much like post WWII Germany those type of critters along with just about any other type of pest animal including stray cats and dogs would find themselves in a soup pot fast. I have actually met some Cubans who will not talk about what happened to the local cat population when things got bad down that way. I can also remember an old Italian guy once telling me that for a while after WWII you didn’t even see a song bird anywhere.

              Yet people have survived for 1000’s of years under such circumstances and they will continue to do so when/if it happens again. They adapt. Your rabbit example is a good one because you fail to see that while an abundance of rabbits are a problem to a gardener today in a collapse situation that same gardener would drop to his knees and thank his God for those very same rabbits. Right now time v. what the rabbit gives in return makes the rabbit a pest. In a collapse situation where time becomes once again cheaper that rabbit is now a valuable resource.

              Will people die? Of course they will but not all and a balance will once again be found.

          • Fast Eddy says:

            It’s that time again …. yes you guessed … it’s time to play:

            The Fast Eddy Challenge….

            Take your foot out of the BAU world and put it deep into the mud!

            1. Turn off the electricity for a month
            2. Do not use any petrol
            3. Eat only the food that you produce – no cheating
            4. Cut all wood by hand.
            5. Wash all clothes by hand.
            6. Buy nothing
            7. Use no medicines
            8. Use no medical services

            We eagerly await your report in 30 days.

            Oh and keep in mind — BAU will still be in play (we hope) outside of your bubble — so fortunately you will not have to deal with hordes attacking you. So this is more like a Fast Eddy Lite Challenge.

          • Fast Eddy says:

            ‘Many of the problems I see brought up such as fencing for livestock will become almost a non-issue once mass personal transportation ceases.’

            How many people can walk to your position?

            Assume most people have say half a tank of petrol in their vehicles. How many people live within in say 300km of your position?

            You will be long dead before ‘mass personal transportation ceases’

            • How many people are physically able to walk to my location? Less than a fraction of a percent of the population would make it even a few miles. How many would be left standing and looking to move further out after they preyed on each other? Not many and attrition would take care of them long before they made it out to my neck of the woods. Depending on the time of year exposure would do a number on them anyway. Your prediction of ravaging hordes is still as misguided and one dimensional as always.

            • Fast Eddy says:

              Can you feed the number of people who are within walking distance of you?

              What about the people who are within half a tank of gas? Can you feed them?

              What are planning to do about the radiation that is going to be headed your way?

              Have you tried the Fast Eddy Challenge? You know — the one where you COMPLETELY unplug from BAU for a month.

              Feel free to answer all of these questions. Otherwise you are wasting everyone’s time with your Koombaya bull shi t

            • I have done each of those things at times in my life to see how I would handle it and how I need to adjust and prepare for when/if I NEED to do them on a daily basis.

              Tell ya what. You come and walk even 50 miles to my farm and try and steal something. Can’t use the roads as they will be full of predators from the cities. Have to go cross country. Once you prove you can do that I might pay attention to your challenge. Until then you have no experience with cross country survival, forced marching conditions and then being able to actually raid a farm so really have no idea what you are talking about.

            • Fast Eddy says:

              If I were a wise person … I would be trying all of those challenges now…. as in while BAU is still in play….

              Because that would help me to identify my weaknesses — and better prepare for the post BAU world.

              But of course you and all the other doomie preppies will not do that.

              You know why – and I know why — but you will not admit it ….

              It is because you know that if you were to unplug now — you would soon reach the conclusion that living outside of the bubble is not possible … it would kill off all hope — and leave you mired in a swamp of despair….

              Come on .. admit it.

              What about the radiation issue? You don’t think I am going to let you off the hook on that…. what happens when the winds of death sprinkle your little paradise with cesium and other toxic stuff….

              Again — I will assume you are not able to see my question — because Mr Cognitive Dissonance has blocked it out….

            • Mark says:

              You skipped the radiation question. Guess they always will.

    • DJ says:

      *clap* *clap* *clap*

  5. Rob Bell says:

    Where the hell is all the video of this shooter in Vegas? Isn’t the eye always watching you?

  6. J. H. Wyoming says:


    I’m sure Trump will find a way to be vindictive to this guy, but some guy named Manuel Miranda tweeted Trump should go to h-e-l-l. Funny tweets of his to Trump in article.

    • Jesse James says:

      A significant and growing percentage of the public do not trust the MSM. These continued actions by the social media giants cannot stop or change the public awareness of their duplicity.We need alternates to YouTube.

  7. J. H. Wyoming says:


    Gail, looks like Nate is projected to sweep in to your neck of the woods, hitting the coast as either a weakened tropical storm up to a hurricane 2-3. Just a bunch of rain by the time it gets to Atlanta, but as we have seen with Houston, lots of rain can be destructive. Hopefully you are above the flood level.

    • Fast Eddy says:

      It’s been raining heavily for two days now here on the west coast of the south island of NZ…

      Looking out the window — yep – still raining….

      I was planning a long bike ride today being Saturday — this god damn KKKKlimate CCChange pis ses me off!

      Maybe I should install some solar panels and a windmill — and buy an EV…. everyone has to do their part in combating this EVIL!

    • Atlanta is quite high up so flooding is less of a problem. Some parts of the Atlanta area had a lot of power outages with Irma, but we didn’t in the county where I live. (Only one brief outage at my home.) Most of the power lines are above ground, so any little bit of wind tends to cause outages.

      • J. H. Wyoming says:

        Our area use to be like that – any kind of wind around 20 mph or higher and we’d expect power outages. They finally upgraded and now the power lines are more robust.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s