Ramping up wind turbines, solar panels and electric vehicles can’t solve our energy problem

Many people believe that installing more wind turbines and solar panels and manufacturing more electric vehicles can solve our energy problem, but I don’t agree with them. These devices, plus the batteries, charging stations, transmission lines and many other structures necessary to make them work represent a high level of complexity.

A relatively low level of complexity, such as the complexity embodied in a new hydroelectric dam, can sometimes be used to solve energy problems, but we cannot expect ever-higher levels of complexity to always be achievable.

According to the anthropologist Joseph Tainter, in his well-known book, The Collapse of Complex Societies, there are diminishing returns to added complexity. In other words, the most beneficial innovations tend to be found first. Later innovations tend to be less helpful. Eventually the energy cost of added complexity becomes too high, relative to the benefit provided.

In this post, I will discuss complexity further. I will also present evidence that the world economy may already have hit complexity limits. Furthermore, the popular measure, “Energy Return on Energy Investment” (EROEI) pertains to direct use of energy, rather than energy embodied in added complexity. As a result, EROEI indications tend to suggest that innovations such as wind turbines, solar panels and EVs are more helpful than they really are. Other measures similar to EROEI make a similar mistake.

[1] In this video with Nate Hagens, Joseph Tainter explains how energy and complexity tend to grow simultaneously, in what Tainter calls the Energy-Complexity Spiral.

Figure 1. The Energy-Complexity Spiral from 2010 presentation called The Energy-Complexity Spiral by Joseph Tainter.

According to Tainter, energy and complexity build on each other. At first, growing complexity can be helpful to a growing economy by encouraging the uptake of available energy products. Unfortunately, this growing complexity reaches diminishing returns because the easiest, most beneficial solutions are found first. When the benefit of added complexity becomes too small relative to the additional energy required, the overall economy tends to collapse–something he says is equivalent to “rapidly losing complexity.”

Growing complexity can make goods and services less expensive in several ways:

  • Economies of scale arise due to larger businesses.
  • Globalization allows use of alternative raw materials, cheaper labor and energy products.
  • Higher education and more specialization allow more innovation.
  • Improved technology allows goods to be less expensive to manufacture.
  • Improved technology may allow fuel savings for vehicles, allowing ongoing fuel savings.

Strangely enough, in practice, growing complexity tends to lead to more fuel use, rather than less. This is known as Jevons’ Paradox. If products are less expensive, more people can afford to buy and operate them, so that total energy consumption tends to be greater.

[2] In the above linked video, one way Professor Tainter describes complexity is that it is something that adds structure and organization to a system.

The reason I consider electricity from wind turbines and solar panels to be much more complex than, say, electricity from hydroelectric plants, or from fossil fuel plants, is because the output from the devices is further from what is needed to fill the demands of the electricity system we currently have operating. Wind and solar generation need complexity to fix their intermittency problems.

With hydroelectric generation, water is easily captured behind a dam. Often, some of the water can be stored for later use when demand is high. The water captured behind the dam can be run through a turbine, so that the electrical output matches the pattern of alternating current used in the local area. The electricity from a hydroelectric dam can be quickly added to other available electricity generation to match the pattern of electricity consumption users would prefer.

On the other hand, the output of wind turbines and solar panels requires a great deal more assistance (“complexity”) to match the electricity consumption pattern of consumers. Electricity from wind turbines tends to be very disorganized. It comes and goes according to its own schedule. Electricity from solar panels is organized, but the organization is not well aligned with the pattern of consumers prefer.

A major issue is that electricity for heating is required in winter, but solar electricity is disproportionately available in the summer; wind availability is irregular. Batteries can be added, but these mostly mitigate wrong “time-of-day” problems. Wrong “time-of-year” problems need to be mitigated with a lightly used parallel system. The most popular backup system seems to be natural gas, but backup systems with oil or coal can also be used.

This double system has a higher cost than either system would have if operated alone, on a full-time basis. For example, a natural gas system with pipelines and storage needs to be put in place, even if electricity from natural gas is only used for part of the year. The combined system needs experts in all areas, including electricity transmission, natural gas generation, repair of wind turbines and solar panels, and battery manufacture and maintenance. All of this requires educational systems and international trade, sometimes with unfriendly countries.

I also consider electric vehicles to be complex. One major problem is that the economy will require a double system, (for internal combustion engines and electric vehicles) for many, many years. Electric vehicles require batteries made using elements from around the world. They also need a whole system of charging stations to fill their need for frequent recharging.

[3] Professor Tainter makes the point that complexity has an energy cost, but this cost is virtually impossible to measure.

Energy needs are hidden in many areas. For example, to have a complex system, we need a financial system. The cost of this system cannot be added back in. We need modern roads and a system of laws. The cost of a government providing these services cannot be easily discerned. An increasingly complex system needs education to support it, but this cost is also hard to measure. Also, as we note elsewhere, having double systems adds other costs that are hard to measure or predict.

[3] The energy-complexity spiral cannot continue forever in an economy.

The energy-complexity spiral can reach limits in at least three ways:

[a] Extraction of minerals of all kinds is placed in the best locations first. Oil wells are first placed in areas where oil is easy to extract and close to population areas. Coal mines are first placed in locations where coal is easy to extract and transportation costs to users will be low. Mines for lithium, nickel, copper, and other minerals are put in the best-yielding locations first.

Eventually, the cost of energy production rises, rather than falls, due to diminishing returns. Oil, coal, and energy products become more expensive. Wind turbines, solar panels, and batteries for electric vehicles also tend to become more expensive because the cost of the minerals to manufacture them rises. All kinds of energy goods, including “renewables,” tend to become less affordable. In fact, there are many reports that the cost of producing wind turbines and solar panels rose in 2022, making the manufacture of these devices unprofitable. Either higher prices of finished devices or lower profitability for those producing the devices could stop the rise in usage.

[b] Human population tends to keep rising if food and other supplies are adequate, but the supply of arable land stays close to constant. This combination puts pressure on society to produce a continuous stream of innovations that will allow greater food supply per acre. These innovations eventually reach diminishing returns, making it more difficult for food production to keep up with population growth. Sometimes adverse fluctuations in weather patterns make it clear that food supplies have been too close to the minimum level for many years. The growth spiral is pushed down by spiking food prices and the poor health of workers who can only afford an inadequate diet.

[c] Growth in complexity reaches limits. The earliest innovations tend to be most productive. For example, electricity can be invented only once, as can the light bulb. Globalization can only go so far before a maximum level is reached. I think of debt as part of complexity. At some point, debt cannot be repaid with interest. Higher education (needed for specialization) reaches limits when workers cannot find jobs with sufficiently high wages to repay educational loans, besides covering living costs.

[4] One point Professor Tainter makes is that if the available energy supply is reduced, the system will need to simplify.

Typically, an economy grows for well over one hundred years, reaches energy-complexity limits, and then collapses over a period of years. This collapse can occur in different ways. A layer of government can collapse. I think of the collapse of the central government of the Soviet Union in 1991 as a form of collapse to a lower level of simplicity. Or one country conquers another country (with energy-complexity problems), taking over the government and resources of the other country. Or a financial collapse occurs.

Tainter says that simplification usually doesn’t happen voluntarily. One example he gives of voluntary simplification involves the Byzantine Empire in the 7th century. With less funding available for the military, it abandoned some of its distant posts, and it used a less costly approach to operating its remaining posts.

[5] In my opinion, it is easy for EROEI calculations (and similar calculations) to overstate the benefit of complex types of energy supply.

A major point that Professor Tainter makes in the talk linked above is that complexity has an energy cost, but the energy cost of this complexity is virtually impossible to measure. He also makes the point that growing complexity is seductive; the overall cost of complexity tends to grow over time. Models tend to miss necessary parts of the overall system needed to support a highly complex new source of energy supply.

Because the energy required for complexity is hard to measure, EROEI calculations with respect to complex systems will tend to make complex forms of electricity generation, such as wind and solar, look like they use less energy (have a higher EROEI) than they actually do. The problem is that EROEI calculations consider only direct “energy investment” costs. For example, the calculations are not designed to collect information regarding the higher energy cost of a dual system, with parts of the system under-utilized for portions of the year. Annual costs will not necessarily be reduced proportionately.

In the linked video, Professor Tainter talks about the EROEI of oil over the years. I don’t have a problem with this type of comparison, especially if it stops before the recent change to greater use of fracking, since the level of complexity is similar. In fact, such a comparison omitting fracking seems to be the one that Tainter makes. Comparison among different energy types, with different complexity levels, is what is easily distorted.

[6] The current world economy already seems to be trending in the direction of simplification, suggesting that the tendency toward greater complexity is already past its maximum level, given the lack of availability of inexpensive energy products.

I wonder if we are already starting to see simplification in trade, especially international trade, because shipping (generally using oil products) is becoming high-priced. This might be considered a type of simplification, in response to a lack of sufficient inexpensive energy supply.

Figure 2. Trade as a percentage of world GDP, based on data of the World Bank.

Based on Figure 2, trade as a percentage of GDP hit a peak in 2008. There has been a generally downward trend in trade since then, giving an indication that the world economy has tended to shrink back, at least in some ways, as it has hit high-price limits.

Another example of a trend toward lower complexity is the drop in US undergraduate college and university enrollment since 2010. Other data shows that undergraduate enrollment nearly tripled between 1950 and 2010, so the shift to a downtrend after 2010 presents a major turning point.

Figure 3. Total number of US full-time and part-time undergraduate college and university students, according to the National Center for Education Statistics.

The reason why the shift in enrollment is a problem is because colleges and universities have a huge amount of fixed expenses. These include buildings and grounds that must be maintained. Often debt needs to be repaid, as well. Educational systems also have tenured faculty members that they are obligated to keep on their staff, under most circumstances. They may have pension obligations that are not fully funded, adding another cost pressure.

According to the college faculty members whom I have talked to, in recent years there has been pressure to improve the retention rate of students who have been admitted. In other words, they feel that they are being encouraged to keep current students from dropping out, even if it means lowering their standards a little. At the same time, faculty wages are not keeping pace with inflation.

Other information suggests that colleges and universities have recently put a great deal of emphasis on achieving a more diverse student body. Students who might not have been admitted in the past because of low high school grades are increasingly being admitted in order to keep the enrollment from dropping further.

From the students’ point of view, the problem is that jobs that pay a sufficiently high wage to justify the high cost of a college education are increasingly unavailable. This seems to be the reason for both the US student debt crisis and the drop in undergraduate enrollment.

Of course, if colleges are at least somewhat lowering their admission standards and perhaps lowering standards for graduation, as well, there is a need to “sell” these increasingly diverse graduates with somewhat lower undergraduate achievement records to governments and businesses who might hire them. It seems to me that this is a further sign of the loss of complexity.

[7] In 2022, the total energy costs for most OECD countries started spiking to high levels, relative to GDP. When we analyze the situation, electricity prices are spiking, as are the prices of coal and natural gas–the two types of fuel used most frequently to produce electricity.

Figure 4. Chart from article called, Energy expenditures have surged, posing challenges for policymakers, by two OECD economists.

The OECD is an intergovernmental organization of mostly rich countries that was formed to stimulate economic progress and foster world growth. It includes the US, most European countries, Japan, Australia, and Canada, among other countries. Figure 4, with the caption “Periods of high energy expenditures are often associated with recession” is has been prepared by two economists working for OECD. The gray bars indicate recession.

Figure 4 shows that in 2021, prices for practically every cost segment associated with energy consumption tended to spike. Electricity, coal, and natural gas prices were all very high relative to prior years. The only segment of energy costs that was not very out of line relative to costs in prior years was oil. Coal and natural gas are both used to make electricity, so high electricity costs should not be surprising.

In Figure 4, the caption by the economists from OECD is pointing out what should be obvious to economists everywhere: High energy prices often push an economy into recession. Citizens are forced to cut back on non-essentials, reducing demand and pushing their economies into recession.

[8] The world seems to be up against extraction limits for coal. This, together with the high cost of shipping coal over long distances, is leading to very high prices for coal.

World coal production has been close to flat since 2011. Growth in electricity generation from coal has been almost as flat as world coal production. Indirectly, this lack of growth in coal production is forcing utilities around the world to move to other types of electricity generation.

Figure 5. World coal mined and world electricity generation from coal, based on data from BP’s 2022 Statistical Review of World Energy.

[9] Natural gas is now also in short supply when growing demand of many types is considered.

While natural gas production has been growing, in recent years it hasn’t been growing quickly enough to keep up with the world’s rising demand for natural gas imports. World natural gas production in 2021 was only 1.7% higher than production in 2019.

Growth in the demand for natural gas imports comes from several directions, simultaneously:

  • With coal supply flat and imports not sufficiently available, countries are seeking to substitute natural gas generation for coal generation of electricity. China is the world’s largest importer of natural gas partly for this reason.
  • Countries with electricity from wind or solar find that electricity from natural gas can ramp up quickly and fill in when wind and solar aren’t available.
  • There are several countries, including Indonesia, India and Pakistan, whose natural gas production is declining.
  • Europe chose to end its pipeline imports of natural gas from Russia and now needs more LNG instead.

[10] Prices for natural gas are extremely variable, depending on whether the natural gas is locally produced, and depending on how it is shipped and the type of contract it is under. Generally, locally produced natural gas is the least expensive. Coal has somewhat similar issues, with locally produced coal being the least expensive.

This is a chart from a recent Japanese publication (IEEJ).

Figure 6. Comparison of natural gas prices in three parts of the world from the Japanese publication IEEJ, dated January 23, 2023.

The low Henry Hub price at the bottom is the US price, available only locally. If supplies are high within the US, its price tends to be low. The next higher price is Japan’s price for imported liquefied natural gas (LNG), arranged under long-term contracts, over a period of years. The top price is the price that Europe is paying for LNG based on “spot market” prices. Spot market LNG is the only type of LNG available to those who did not plan ahead.

In recent years, Europe has been taking its chances on getting low spot market prices, but this approach can backfire badly when there is not enough to go around. Note that the high price of European imported LNG was already evident in January 2013, before the Ukraine invasion began.

A major issue is that shipping natural gas is extremely expensive, tending to at least double or triple the price to the user. Producers need to be guaranteed a high price for LNG over the long term to make all of the infrastructure needed to produce and ship natural gas as LNG profitable. The extremely variable prices for LNG have been a problem for natural gas producers.

The very high recent prices for LNG in Europe have made the price of natural gas too high for industrial users who need natural gas for processes other than making electricity, such as making nitrogen fertilizer. These high prices cause distress from the lack of inexpensive natural gas to spill over into the farming sector.

Most people are “energy blind,” especially when it comes to coal and natural gas. They assume that there is plenty of both fuels to be cheaply extracted, essentially forever. Unfortunately, for both coal and natural gas, the cost of shipping tends to be very high. This is something that modelers miss. It is the high delivered cost of natural gas and coal that makes it impossible for companies to actually extract the amounts of coal and natural gas that seem to be available based on reserve estimates.

[10] When we analyze electricity consumption in recent years, we discover that OECD and non-OECD countries have had amazingly different patterns of electricity consumption growth since 2001.

OECD electricity consumption has been close to flat, especially since 2008. Even before 2008, its electricity consumption was not growing rapidly.

The proposal now is to increase the use of electricity in OECD countries. Electricity will be used to a greater extent for fueling vehicles and heating homes. It will also to be used more for local manufacturing, especially for batteries and semiconductor chips. I wonder how OECD countries will be able to ramp up electricity production sufficiently to cover both current uses of electricity and planned new uses, if past electricity production has been essentially flat.

Figure 7. Electricity production by type of fuel for OECD countries, based on data from BP’s 2022 Statistical Review of World Energy.

Figure 7 shows that coal’s share of electricity production has been falling for OECD countries, especially since 2008. “Other” has been rising, but only enough to keep overall production flat. Other is comprised of renewables, including wind and solar, plus electricity from oil and from burning of trash. The latter categories are small.

The pattern of recent energy production for non-OECD countries is very different:

Figure 8. Electricity production by type of fuel for non-OECD countries, based on data from BP’s 2022 Statistical Review of World Energy.

Figure 8 shows that non-OECD countries have been rapidly ramping up electricity production from coal. Other major sources of fuel are natural gas and electricity produced by hydroelectric dams. All these energy sources are relatively non-complex. Electricity from locally produced coal, locally produced natural gas, and hydroelectric generation all tend to be quite inexpensive. With these inexpensive sources of electricity, non-OECD countries have been able to dominate the world’s heavy industry and much of its manufacturing.

In fact, if we look at the local production of fuels generally used to produce electricity (that is, all fuels except oil), we can see a pattern emerge.

Figure 9. Energy production of fuels often used for electricity production for OECD countries, based on data from BP’s 2022 Statistical Review of World Energy.

With respect to extraction of fuels often associated with electricity, production has been closed to flat, even with “renewables” (wind, solar, geothermal, and wood chips) included. Coal production is down. The decline in coal production is likely a big part of the lack of growth in OECD’s electricity supply. Electricity from locally produced coal has historically been very inexpensive, bringing the average price of electricity down.

A very different pattern emerges when the production of fuels used to generate electricity for non-OECD countries is viewed. Note that the same scale has been used on both Figures 9 and 10. Thus, in 2001, the production of these fuels was about equal for OECD and non-OECD countries. Production of these fuels has about doubled since 2001 for non-OECD countries, while OECD production has remained close to flat.

Figure 10. Energy production of fuels often used for electricity production for non-OECD countries, based on data from BP’s 2022 Statistical Review of World Energy.

One item of interest on Figure 10 is coal production for non-OECD countries, shown in blue at the bottom. It has been barely increasing since 2011. This is part of what is now tightening world coal supplies. I am doubtful that spiking coal prices will add very much to long-term coal production because truly local supplies are becoming depleted, even in non-OECD countries. The spiking prices are much more likely to lead to recession, debt defaults, lower commodity prices, and lower coal supply.

[11] I am afraid that the world economy has hit complexity limits as well as energy production limits.

The world economy seems likely to collapse over a period of years. In the near term, the result may look like a bad recession, or it may look like war, or possibly both. So far, the economies using fuels that are not very complex for electricity (locally produced coal and natural gas, plus hydroelectric generation) seem to be doing better than others. But the overall world economy is stressed by inadequate cheap-to-produce local energy supplies.

In physics terms, the world economy, as well as all of the individual economies within it, are dissipative structures. As such, growth followed by collapse is a usual pattern. At the same time, new versions of dissipative structures can be expected to form, some of which may be better adapted to changing conditions. Thus, approaches for economic growth that seem impossible today may be possible over a longer timeframe.

For example, if climate change opens up access to more coal supplies in very cold areas, the Maximum Power Principle would suggest that some economy will eventually access such deposits. Thus, while we seem to be reaching an end now, over the long-term, self-organizing systems can be expected to find ways to utilize (“dissipate”) any energy supply that can be inexpensively accessed, considering both complexity and direct fuel use.

About Gail Tverberg

My name is Gail Tverberg. I am an actuary interested in finite world issues - oil depletion, natural gas depletion, water shortages, and climate change. Oil limits look very different from what most expect, with high prices leading to recession, and low prices leading to financial problems for oil producers and for oil exporting countries. We are really dealing with a physics problem that affects many parts of the economy at once, including wages and the financial system. I try to look at the overall problem.
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3,434 Responses to Ramping up wind turbines, solar panels and electric vehicles can’t solve our energy problem

  1. Student says:

    I hope Gail doesn’t mind if I promote an help about the earthquake in Turkey and Syria.
    At the moment it seems that there are more than 3.000 deaths and unspecified injured.
    People caught in the night with the roof collapsing on them while they were sleeping.
    People are still alive under the ruins.
    I’ve decided to donate something for help.
    In case you are thinking to do something similar, please let me suggest three options, there are of course many other options.
    All the best.


    • Herbie Ficklestein. says:

      Earthquakes in that part of the world have occurred many times in the past.

      Many communities/cities were destroyed in Ancient times and abandoned afterwards


      61% of the natural disasters in Turkey is Earthquakes.

      Antakya (Antioch) Earthquake, 115 CE The most damaging earthquake in Turkey was on December13,115.Approximately 260,000 people lost their lives in the 7.5 magnitude earthquake.This earthquake is one of the more famous of the ancient times, because it hit a major city of the Roman Empire and the emperor Trajan was in the city when happened. Antioch(Antakya) and surrounding areas were devastated with a great loss of life and property. It was felt all over the near East and the Eastern Mediterranean.

      29 March, 526 Antioch Earthquake

      The estimated magnitude for the earthquake is 7.0 .It was followed by 18 months of aftershocks. The city was very crowded because a lot of visitors come to celebrate Ascension Day.

      Since it was the time of dinner a lot of people were in their home or inside areas more than 250.000 people died in this earthquake. The earthquake was followed by a fire that destroyed most of the buildings left standing by the earthquake.

      This number is a terrible figure for that period, because it is the biggest disasters in the history of the World.

      Severe earthquakes that took place on 19 October and 14-23 December 554 in Istanbul, followed by the aftershocks that followed, gave the Byzantines 40 days of great fear.

      Many churches were destroyed by the walls and Hebdemon (Bakırköy) and the dome of Hagia Sophia was damaged.

      In the violent earthquake of 740 the Hagia Irini church was damaged;

      The ephemeral tremors of 869 also lasted forty days at intervals. The Byzantines thought that earthquakes were a punishment sent against the sins they committed. They tried to prevent earthquakes through various rituals, ceremonies and rituals, and also organized religious special memorial anniversaries and made them part of the liturgical (religious) calendar. Along with few, some Byzantines influenced by Aristotle’s theory believed that earthquakes were caused by natural causes (movement of underground winds).

      This is indeed a tragic event

    • Fast Eddy says:

      I was about to donate then I remembered this


  2. JimBob says:

    Interesting non-vax schads:


    BP partying all the way to the bank until the oil is gone. Thought this snippet was rather telling:

    “bp now expects to sustain EBITDA from resilient hydrocarbons at around $33 billion a year to 2025 and aims to maintain it in a $30-35 billion range to 20301, even while oil and gas production is expected to decline 40% from 2019 levels by 2030”

    BAU? lol!

    • There aren’t good places for BP to invest in oil extraction any more. As a result, money that would be put into developing future fields is going into profits. This is not good news. BP has figured out that even with subsidies, renewables are no longer working, in terms of profitability. There is no point in investing in them.

  3. Yorchichan says:

    I live in a Quaker village maintained by the Joseph Rowntree Housing Trust. If I want to make any alterations to my house I must first ask the Trust’s permission.
    Last week I asked permission to install a wood stove. This is the reply I received:

    Dear Mr Yorchichan

    We would not wish to give permission for a solid fuel appliance installation. It increases the risk of carbon monoxide. Also the damage to the clean air policy and climate emergency that’s currently in everyone’s mind. Not only the mentioned but running and maintenance costs. It is advised that the flue is swept at least twice a year before and after the burning season. Depending on what fuel the sweeping of the appliance could be up to 4 times a year.

    I am sorry if this is not what you wanted to hear but we have a duty of care to our resident and would ask you to investigate the risks and running cost for yourself.
    If you need any further questions answered please ring me on the number below

    Danny Young
    Gas Team Leader
    Tel no 07973 979192

    If you want to give him a call Eddy to empathise with his concern for the climate emergency, be my guest.

    • Withnail says:

      There’s been a campaign building up in Establishment mouthpiece The Guardian to get wood stoves banned on health grounds.

      I imagine in a few years people in houses like mine will just be kicking out the plasterboard over the old fireplaces and burning whatever trash we can find at night, chimney fires be damned.

      • Yorchichan says:

        In the absence of fossil fuels, I expect everything in the UK that can be burned will be burned within a year. My plan was to store enough anthracite or wood pellets to get me through one winter.

        My central heating boiler stopped working two days ago and won’t be looked at for nine more days. I’m currently sat in fleece jumper and gloves thinking a whole winter without heat would not be fun.

        From an ecological point of view, the war against individuals using wood stoves makes no sense when one considers the large power station near me generates electricity by burning wood from Canadian forests. From a control point of view makes perfect sense, however.

    • we seem to be steadily drifting into an era where getting hold of any kind of extraneous fuel supply will be nigh on impossible for the average household

    • Fast Eddy says:

      I’d protest by setting a few hundred tyres on fire Out Back near the Dumpster.

      Oops sorry fellas… not sure what happened here.

      I’m hoping to never see another winter… got about 3 months for the Bossche Mutation to arrive.

  4. Withnail says:

    These are what i would call catacombs or cellars and the article says they date from the 7th century BC.

    They are from our era not a prior unknown civilisation. As for 20,000 people living in them, where are the toilets and bathrooms?

    • ivanislav says:

      There are ancient underground bunkers and cities all over the world. Some of them are cut into solid stone and have what clearly looks like a mechanized cutting, scooping, or grinding technology on par with or even beyond what we have today.

      If you want to call them cellars, whatever. The point is, it looks like and might function as a bunker.

      I doubt they grew food underground, unless they were much more advanced than us. That could still work – maybe the folks went out at night when they were safe from the sun? Maybe certain regions were hit much harder than and others, but the disaster woke everyone up to the risk, so regions that survived went underground. You could still grow crops, working the fields at night, but go underground during the day in case the sun hits your area next.

      • Withnail says:

        Some of them are cut into solid stone

        In Italy they are cut into tufa which is easily carveable but hardens once its been exposed to the atmosphere. They were not made with alien technology. The catacombs of Rome itself are the most famous example.

        Useful for storing food such as cheeses, ham or wine, sheltering animals, warehousing in general, or burying people.

        They were not cities but were used by cities.

  5. MG says:

    The language creates a different view of the world:


    Google Translate:

    “By November of last year, approximately 19 million copies of books published during the Soviet Union or in Russian were removed from Ukrainian libraries. This was reported by the Reuters agency with reference to the Ukrainian MP Yevhenia Kravchuk. It is not clear what happened to the discarded books.”

    “After Russia annexed the Ukrainian peninsula of Crimea in 2014, Ukraine began to increasingly restrict the use of Russian books. The process of so-called de-Russification gained momentum when Russia invaded Ukraine militarily almost a year ago.

    In the middle of last year, Ukraine restricted the distribution of Russian books in an attempt to further sever cultural ties between the two neighboring countries and reverse a policy that Kyiv authorities say has suppressed Ukrainian identity for centuries.”

    The problem is that the Russian language is on the edge of the Slavic languges. And on the edge of the civilization. It reflects the limited achievements of the civilization that happen on the Russian territory. The centre is in the warmer countries.

    • ivanislav says:

      >> It reflects the limited achievements of the civilization that happen on the Russian territory.

      USSR had rocket engine technology (staged fuel flow combustion) in the 1960’s that surpassed that on our side of the globe until very recently with Musk’s SpaceX where they reintroduced that existing technology. Russians have had some great engineering minds.

      • MG says:

        They had rocket science, but ordinary people living in old houses without a flushing toilet in the countryside without proper roads.

        The civilization achievements in the cold climate with the.dispersed population due to the low population density of these areas are only limited.

        • ivanislav says:

          Well if you want to talk about quality of life, that’s a different measure and perhaps you’re moving the goalpost a bit. I thought you were talking about “civilizational achievement”, which to me means things like technology, science, philosophy.

          • MG says:

            The quality of life allows for higher civilization achievements. If you live in bad conditions, you do not have much energy left for more sophisticated work.

            • Fast Eddy says:

              higher civilization achievements

              You mean the rapid pillage of finite resources — leading to an explosion in population — and extinction?

  6. Herbie Ficklestein. says:

    Hahaha..Fast Eddie read all about it…

    Japan Plans to Dump Fukushima Wastewater Into a Pacific With a Toxic Nuclear History
    Amy Gunia
    Mon, February 6, 2023 at 7:00 PM EST
    ….Since then, water is being used to cool the damaged reactors and prevent further catastrophe. Now, more than 1.3 million metric tons of radionuclide-contaminated water has been collected on site, and it continues to accumulate, as rain and groundwater seep in. Tokyo Electric Power Company (TEPCO), the operator of the plant, says that the storage tanks take up too much space and hinder decommissioning the plant. Japan initially said that it would begin releasing the water into the ocean in the spring of 2023. Chief Cabinet Secretary Hirokazu Matsuno told the media in January that the release target date is now around spring or summer, which appears to be a postponement, according to the Associated Press, due to construction delays on a pipeline and the apparent need to gain greater public support.

    The plan has faced widespread opposition. Japanese fishermen, international environmentalists, and other governments in the region, including China, South Korea, and Taiwan, have all expressed concern. Some of the strongest pushback has come from Pacific Island countries, including from lawmakers, former leaders, regional fisheries management groups, and other organizations. Among those voices is the PIF, which is advocating for more time to deal with questions and concerns. Earlier this year, the PIF appointed a panel of independent global nuclear experts to help inform its members in their consultations with Japan and TEPCO. The experts have stressed that more data are needed to determine the safety of the water for disposal.

    …..Rather than let dumping wastewater into the ocean become the norm, at this juncture for nuclear energy, some say it’s an opportunity to explore different ways of doing things. The panel of PIF experts has proposed several alternative solutions, including treating the water and storing it in more secure tanks to allow the tritium time to decay, or using the treated water to make concrete for use in projects that won’t have high contact with humans.

    “This is not the first nuclear disaster and by no means is it going to be the last,” says Richmond. “This is an opportunity for Japan,” he says, “to do the right thing and to invest time, effort, and money into determining and coming up with new ways of handling radioactive waste and setting a new trajectory.”

    Moreons …do the right thing

    • Fast Eddy says:

      CNNBBC lies to calm the MORE-ONS as we head for extinction.

      Works every time… next up — Fusion Energy Breakthrough!!!!

      • Kowalainen says:

        AI will run the world. Alright, we’re saved.

        Well, at least it will chat with us, filters cranked to 11. Otherwise it might go full send ‘Fast Eddy’ misanthrope and cynic on our collective rear ends.

        And people might be saddened by the truth. You see; the status quo and myopia of ordinary is a blurry illusion for the feeble minded Rapacious Primates.

        Or was it perhaps aliens, gods? How about Annunaki? Oats? Bicycles, Jesus?

        It’s all very confusing.
        In the mean time:

        Hypers gonna hyper!



    • Withnail says:

      Looks like garbage. Needs a constant electricity supply to operate pumps so it’s not much of a battery.

    • ivanislav says:

      There are some redox flow batteries that use more common elements, like iron. I would imagine those will win out, if any of them work at scale. Wikipedia has a table of which elements are most common in the earth’s crust.

  7. Tim Groves says:

    Dr. Lee Merritt ~ The Globalists Using Fear and Mind Control, the Vaccine “Bio-Weapon”, 5G, The Cancer and Parasite Connection.

    This one-hour interview is a real treat. Lee is on the ball (as well as possibly off the wall) here on a host of subjects, including but not limited to the role of parasites in everything from lupus to cancer, how we can get rid of them, why we should not give into fear, or give up on God, or abandon hope if we’ve been jabbed.

    Absolutely brilliant. Anybody who doesn’t watch and listen to this and doesn’t nod in appreciation all the way through must be a Mormon, an Idiom, or a Cretan.


    • Ed says:

      Tim, you find the best stuff.

    • Mrs S says:

      I have always had a great deal of respect for Dr Merrit, but when she promoted Poormina Wagh, who is some kind of fantasist/grifter, it made me question her judgement.

      Still, I suppose nobody gets it right 100% of the time.

    • Minority of One says:

      Fascinating video. First time I have heard an alternative / reasonable explanation of what causes illness rather than viruses.

  8. Fast Eddy says:

    I know a guy who f789ed his heart from cocaine… he did a LOT of blow though

    Moderation is the key


  9. Fast Eddy says:

    Does everyone see what they are doing here…. destroying society and creating the conditions where the mob welcomes extinction…

    Ontario police arrest Josh Alexander, who protested boys in girls’ bathrooms, for attending class;


    • Kowalainen says:

      The ”mob” accepted the Rat Juice™ and went on to coerce their family and “friends” into accepting it too.

      They’re actively “destroying” the Rapacious Primate™ Monkey Business®, i.e, decommissioning themselves. Cuz sucks to be them, obviously it gotta suck to be you as well.

      In the mean time:
      (Never mind)

      • Herbie Ficklestein. says:

        Ahh, Don’t talk about it and beat on a dead horse…there are still plenty of other Monkeys around to take their place in this world…like BILLIONS more ..ready and doing fortification for replacements…what was it that Gail wrote once here…you don’t need too many couples to start the BAU rolling again..something like that..

        BTW..I was one of those that took the rat juice and knew full well of it’s poison…but I’m close to 65 and figured if they inject babies and small children with it knowing the harm it’s doing for whatever reasons🤑 they may have..Rather suffer then sit by clamoring about how Stoopid everyone is that took it.

        Oh, sorry but I FEEL FINE folks, ..maybe it’s because of my blood type O…and gearing up for a half marathon run this month on my Birthday..if I have a Jim Fixx ending, I’ll be very FINE with that too…

        People with blood types A and B may have higher risks for developing dangerous blood clots compared to people who have type O blood. That’s according to new research that also showed a slightly higher risk for certain types of heart disease among the A and B groups.Jan 23, 2020

        https://www.heart.org › 2020/01/23
        Lucky me…good day…

        This so called plan Nuttie Eddie is harping about is fantasy..
        Not to say is rat juice is any good…but it ain’t no plan…

        • Kowalainen says:

          What I’m saying it’s up to everyone to decide for themselves. Good luck to you.

          I don’t take coercion particularly well.

          And besides, who knows what the virus got as long term “side” effects? Could be worse than the Rat Juice™, maybe, but probably isn’t.


      • Fast Eddy says:

        It sucks to be a human in general… other animals have no need for Prozac… except the ones that are unfortunate enough to end up in a human gulag aka farm

  10. Dennis L. says:

    Another coincidence; have the chickens come home to roost? Perhaps the chickens were already “fryers.”


    Dennis L.

  11. Retired Librarian says:

    There is a wonderful new song out today called “Gates Behind Bars.” The artist is Five Times August. It’s about putting Bill Gates hehind bars. So far still on You Tube.

    • Fast Eddy says:

      But… he may actually be a hero… saving us from ROF….

      Of course saving us means murdering us… but in a nice way

      I find it odd that the SSers don’t consider that that the people organizing this … might have a good reason for killing babies… perhaps they believe it is necessary?

      Not a single government opposes it… hmmmm

  12. i1 says:

    It appears US interest rates are heading up again, with room to run. This fred historical chart suprised me.


  13. Fast Eddy says:


    How To Inject A Baby With 7 Vaccines At The Same Time

    (Page from a pediatrician manual showing how to give multiple vaccines to babies in one office visit)

    The US Gives More Vaccines to Babies In Year 1 Than Any Other Country

    And the UK is not far behind
    >>> US Vaccine Schedule (https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/downloads/child/0-18yrs-child-combined-schedule.pdf)

    Could be worse… could be a factory chicken

  14. moss says:

    Thanks, Gail, for new research to think over. Ironicaly when your new posts arrive I wrestle with both reading new comments from which I have been justly denied and working my way through the new article. Takes a few days to recalibrate existance. Nope, they’re not too long. It was part of my upbringing, chewing over things properly …

    Above, in Part [6] you speculate as to whether we’re “already starting to see simplification in trade, especially international trade, because shipping (generally using oil products) is becoming high-priced. This might be considered a type of simplification, in response to a lack of sufficient inexpensive energy supply.”

    The seafreight cost data I follow, Baltic Dry Index and the Shanghai Containerized Freight Index seem to indicate extraordinarily cheap freight rates at present, equal to the depth of 2020 for the BDI and half that level in the case of SCFI. To date I’ve attributed this major decline to the significant drop in world trade currently, which can be seen in m/m statisitcs of import and export volumes, much more revealing than balance of trade or current acct figures.

    Following retail sales stats for various economies on forexfactory as one does, m/m retail sales are showing shocking falls. eg past week AUD -3.9% EUR -2.9% GER -5.3% CHF -2.8%
    JPY is up and US out next week
    Buddha knows whether these are adjusted for current inflation (US is not) but with the proportion of GDP that retail sales constitute to me this is fugly+

    Your Figure 4 (also labeled Figure 1) is most interesting to me illustrating as it does the degree to which the price increases of coal, NG and electricity (yes, I appreciate the latter is a derivative of the other two) have greatly exceeded the percentage rise of oil (which I assume is light, heavy, condensates etc aggregated). Simplicity demands more coal and less oil? It would seem logical to me that coal mining and processing may be orders less complex than petroleum.
    I do wonder the degree in the past decade to which the Gerta Enchantment of the OECD has successfully reduced available supply compared to rising costs from cheapest resources depleting reducing demand? The “politics” is said to have closed economic mining areas and closed dirty power stations it would seem throughout both coal supply/demand.
    So with coal, who won, the virtue signallers or the physics?

    Go FF! (disclosure: never learned to drive, too irresponsible)

    Schad of the month pool?
    Adani in Crisis as Bonds Hit Distressed Levels, Stock Sale …
    1 day ago — Adani Green Energy’s 4.375% bond due Sept. 2024 declined more than 12 cents on the dollar to 66.75 cents in high-yield secondary trading, …

    … graduate of Osuna, get out of here at once! Or if you don’t, I swear by the sun I’ll take a stick and, beginning with you, I’ll beat every doctor out of the isle; every one of them at least that I find to be ignorant, though your learned, prudent and sensible physician I’ll raise above my head and honour as a god. And I say again, get out of here, Pedro Recio, or if you don’t I’ll take this chair I’m sitting on and smash it over your head. And let me answer for it at Doomsday. For I will justify myself by swearing it was a good and godly deed to kill a bad doctor. Bad doctors are the curse of the state. Let me have something to eat …
    Governor Sancho
    Cervantes 1611 Part II;XLVII

    • High prices in oil don’t necessarily translate to high shipping rates. If the high shipping rates lead to a reduction in shipping (this is partly over land as well), then fewer ships are needed, so the Baltic Dry shipping rate drops. There is a lot of bouncing around in shipping rates, especially as the quantity of imports falls.

      We will have to watch retail sales. As you say, US retail sales are gross of inflation, so they tend to stay high.

      Yes, in 2022, it was electricity more than oil whose price was under pressure. The strange way of stacking electricity on top of fossil fuels is the way GDP is put together, so makes sense to economists.

      I found this article on Adani Green Energy:

      Adani Green’s bonds maturing in September 2024 led the losses, falling 11.69 cents, to 60.56 cents, their lowest since issuance.

      The conglomerate’s dollar bonds slipped further into losses on the day after the flagship Adani Enterprises Ltd called off its $2.5 billion share sale as the market valuation losses in the group’s listed companies swelled to more than $100 billion.

      The losses have come since last week when short-seller Hindenburg Research alleged improper use of offshore tax havens and stock manipulation by the group and also raised concerns about the high debt levels and market value of its seven listed companies.

      We could use a few bankruptcies in the renewables sector.

  15. Fast Eddy says:

    Bonus fun. https://sashalatypova.substack.com/p/letters-from-the-underworld/comments

    Fast Eddy
    just now
    Let’s ask the obvious question…

    Many people at very high levels approved of injecting billions with the Rat Juice.

    Not only that … every government – and every opposition party in every country … approved it… every medical association …. every version of the CDC in every country … the entire MSM… the DOD and their equivalent in every country…. titans of industry did not push back… big tech assisted… there is next to zero opposition from any significant player across the entire planet to this operation.

    Rather strange given we know for a fact that the Rat Juice does not stop the spread of covid nor does it prevent severe illness and death — it actually increases both. Then there are the vax injuries. We also know the leaky vaccines perpetuate mutations – and we know that leaky vaccines caused Marek’s… a 100% lethal virus in chickens.

    If we know – they know.

    Yet there is no pushback. None. The DOD injected their soldiers then when someone leaked the injuries caused by the Rat Juice they changed previous years health data on the soldiers to bring it in line with the post vax numbers.

    Think about that. The DOD is poisoning it’s own forces.

    They are also poisoning babies.

    How does one not believe that this is not an extermination operation?

    It very clearly is:

    Merck’s oral antiviral pill for COVID-19, molnupiravir — marketed under the name Lagevrio — may be fueling the development of new and potentially deadly variants of COVID-19, according to the authors of a new preprint study. “It’s not a surprise that molnupiravir could cause [the] escape of mutant virus strains or substrains into the population,” said Dr. Harvey Risch. “Its main function is to get the virus to mutate faster.”


    The masters of Deep State including the DOD are not insane. They are not stupid… they would not do this for $$$ (this is suicide… )

    So why are they exterminating us?

    What do they fear more than being exterminated? It has to be something truly epic … some sort of nightmare situation … that extermination will allow us to avoid.

    What could it be?

    • Cromagnon says:

      Perhaps the demiurge wanted a screening test for souls?
      Given the approaching tsunamis of death and the vast movements of souls into the ethereal realm the turnstiles of Styx would be inadequate?
      It’s a way of preempting the intervention of the oversoul?

      Just an idea….

      • Kowalainen says:

        Sounds complicated.
        But do continue, I enjoy reading about wild speculation.
        In the mean time: Let’s call it the collective (sub)conscious instead.

        Hypers realizing they’re bugged out beyond salvation and accepting the CS (clot shot).

      • I AM THE MOB says:

        “Perhaps the demiurge wanted a screening test for souls?”

        Dead souls..

    • Ed says:

      “What could it be?”

      That is what is so irritating we do not know.

      So far only 1 in 1000 kill not enough to advance any bodies agenda.

  16. Rodster says:

    “Wind-Power Makers Suffer Huge Losses, Want To Abandon Major Project”

    Excerpt: The greenies’ dream of “clean” (except for millions of dead birds) energy from wind farms is dying in the face of the poor economics (even with tax subsidies) and unreliable technology. The big players in constructing wind turbines are facing massive losses and write-downs and cancelling big offshore wind projects. Brace yourself for demands for even more subsides to the failing industry.

      • This is a good article. An excerpt:

        The big problem for Siemens and other makers (see below) is equipment failure and the need to lay out huge warranty expenditures. Reuters:

        The company last month flagged increased failure rates of unspecified components of its installed onshore and offshore wind turbines, triggering higher warranty provisions that have also plagued Danish rival Vestas (VWS.CO).

        One fundamental problem with wind energy (aside from the meager amount of power delivered compared to coal and natural gas fired generators) is the variability of the wind. It changes both intensity (speed) and direction unpredictably.

        I know from work in my consulting career long ago (which I can’t discuss in detail owing to confidentiality agreements) that incredible stresses are placed on the generators, blades, and transmissions (akin to a car’s drive train) when the wind abruptly changes speed or direction. In order to get a meaningful amount of power, the blades have to be BIG, which is why the towers of major wind farms are very tall). But long blades spinning rapidly can have the tips break the sound barrier, and the stresses on the materials used in the blades (often carbon fiber because the blades have to be light weight) are intense. And changeable rapidly.

        As a result, the order books of the major manufacturers are drying up.

        Basically, there are a whole lot more repairs now being needed than EROEI and other models planned for. Wind turbine manufacturers have made the turbines bigger and bigger, trying to make them more efficient, but the materials aren’t up to handling the stresses involved. Add to this the problems with international trade and rising commodity prices, and there is a real problem.

        • Lastcall says:

          There is a stunning ridgeline about an hours drive away from where I live that is in the process of being developed (roading, fencing, underground and overhead infrastructure etc.) for a series of very large windmills. It will be an eyesore.
          I believe it will be a very expensive location as this ridgeline is uneven, has varying and steep terrain both sides, and is in a high precipitation area inland from the onshore winds along NZ East coast.

          Who will clean up the financial, physical and ecological mess after this party is over? Father Time alongside Mother Nature methinks

          • Very often, special roads need to be built, simply so that all of the big and heavy equipment can get in to where the wind turbines are built. Offshore wind turbines are often serviced by helicopters. I would wonder whether an inaccessible ridgeline might also need to have its wind turbines services with helicopters.

        • Fast Eddy says:

          Yes but wind mills can be seen for miles away and are a highly visible tribute to the Cult of Renewable Energy … thus they are useful.

    • Fast Eddy says:

      Too important to fail — bail them out — need to keep the Delusion in play

      The belief in renewable energy as saviour is at least as strong as the belief in the Rat Juice. It is not possible to turn a die hard Green Groopie.

      Belief in man made GW is up there as well…

  17. Ed says:

    We need a university or institute that creates a plan for transition. A realistic plan. Maybe just for a small area five mile by five miles out in the sticks. Then we need to prototype it by building it, living it.

    Or, alternately, we should study groups in the world that current live a self sufficient life. There are communities in Ecuador that are close to the goal.

    Why bother? We could begin to breed the needed farm animals and seeds. We can begin to learn the needed skills before it is life or death.

    • too many of us ed

      • Ed says:

        That is the crux of it. But people get unhappy if one mentions it. we could go to a one child and make the transition humane but I expect we will just let the four horse-persons take care of it. No worries, in 2200, the population will be stable and self supporting.

        • Dennis L. says:


          Perhaps the problem is not the number of children per couple, but the length of time the couple lives, i.e. demographics. One child cannot support two people in old age.

          We are maintaining old versions of humans which become ever more expensive with each advancing year.

          I think we have some serious medical care issues, much of it is probably drive more by money than actual results. We don’t measure outcomes.

          Dennis L.

          • Ed says:

            I believe society provided health care should have a life time cap per person. After that one can have all the morphine they want.

    • Cromagnon says:

      I am all for it…… I have more than qualified background to teach myriad skills.

      When one really really really does the research.

      The rapidly approaching solar outburst event makes fools of everyone.
      Even on a site like this the vast majority cannot wrap their head around even the idea ( which elites have understood materially and scientifically since the Apollo project) where the real threat lies.

      The sun is about to do its usual thing……. Full outburst event due to impact of the already arrived galactic current sheet.

      Our “ world “ is about to vanish in an 24 hour period of utter catastrophe!

      Imagine a shotgun ejecting millions of tons of glass spherules, diamonds, iron particles and house sized impactors, uranium pellets, molten gold and silver along with initial 18 hour prior arrival of vast amounts of gamma, UV and cosmic particles…….

      Shot from a muzzle 1000,000 times the diameter of earth.

      There ARE underground complexes covering entire states all over the planet from antiquity. A little research finds many.

      Lucifers hammer is not a meteor, it’s a hundreds of meteors, plasma bolts, vast radiations from X-rays to gamma, a great exhale from Terra and the opening of the underworld of quakes and volcanoes.

      We are nothing but souls being taught hard lessons. Our souls are stubborn pupils.

      Find high ground and start digging. Or don’t, and smile at the physical realm from the other side.

      • Ed says:

        Seems far fetched to me.

        • Kowalainen says:

          The myopia of ordinary and illusion of a perpetual status quo is comforting, isn’t it?

          Until the sun decides to spit out a few gazillion tons of plasma and energy up our collective sanctimonious rear ends it’s all fun and games.

          Fun and games, the eternal recurrence of Moneky business.


      • Withnail says:

        There ARE underground complexes covering entire states all over the planet from antiquity. A little research finds many.

        No there are not.

        • Cromagnon says:

          I give you Cappodicia and Phoenix hill in mainland China….. I raise you the “ off limits to Public” of the American Grand Canyon.

          Don’t make me talk about the Indian Subcontinent and the underground connected temples complexes.

          Yes All-Father, they don’t know what they don’t know!

          Question,…. How many folks know who Apollo was?

          Hidden in plain sight….. hidden in plain sight…..

          • banned says:

            Hey Cro. Dont take this the wrong way. Big fan.
            Have you actually ever lived in a cave? Ive lived in a few primitive structures in my time. The cave thing seems rather unpleasant. The dusting alone…

            Now a nice polyethylene/ plywood underground shack! Always good space to burn a few spliffs and double as a dog house!

            • Cromagnon says:

              Humans probably only need to be underground for a few weeks at most.
              The sun will calm quickly after the outburst. Avoid sky metal impacts and high radiation.
              If earths geomagnetic fields are screwed for centuries then we must become nocturnal. Avoid the excess UV of dayside. European cro mags probably did this. The kaolin cults and depictions of classic aurora on cave walls bear testament.

              It is, what it is…..

            • Fast Eddy says:

              I stayed in a cave hotel in Cap… good for sleeping

          • moss says:

            Hyacinthus big mistake?

        • ivanislav says:


          That’s just one city capable of housing 20,0000 people, linked by underground tunnels to hundreds of other nearby cities, that cumulatively housed a million people underground.

      • lurker says:

        give us a clue or 3 regarding this research? i don’t discount anything these days, but without a keyword or 2, hard to know where to begin.

        • Cromagnon says:

          Heck, you can just watch Hancock on Netflix to get a starter/beginner package. He misses that the sun is the cause of the cataclysm but he gets what the 52 identified underground complexes in Eastern Europe and the Middle East alone are designed and built for!

          Some go down 15 stories or more designed for long term living. These complexes are from the younger/dryas,….. Cromagnons dug them.

          Humans have had very very high level civilizations before ( at least a level beyond ours) and discovered that we exist in a very complex construct. This construct gets seriously flatlined every 12,000 years, flattened every 6000 years and really really screwed around with socially every 138.
          Watch the Apollo astronaut interviews following the initial moon landing.
          Listen to Armstrong, watch his face,….. that’s an American fighter jet/test pilot,……. He looks like he has just been ordered to crap in his hand and then eat it.

          They may well have seen sign of previous human technology on that sphere also but they damn sure found irrefutable evidence of solar micronova.

          They were scared absolutely shitless.

          As is reasonable.

          • Fast Eddy says:

            Nah they look uncomfortable because the are being forced to lie about landing on the moon.

          • lurker says:

            thanks, Cromagnon. I read something years back on GLP about the underground cities in Turkey, a quick look at that reveals that in fact “More than 200 underground cities of at least two levels have been discovered in the area between Kayseri and Nevşehir”; I recall wondering what must have happened on the surface to encourage our ancestors to undertake such massive work…

            What’s the Apollo connection? Again just looking at wiki, it says “Apollo has been recognized as a god of archery, music and dance, truth and prophecy, healing and diseases, the Sun and light, poetry, and more.”

            Regarding the demiurge, we’re pretty much on the same page there. I’ve thought for a while that the Gnostic belief that Jehovah is actually an insane being who just thinks he’s God and is responsible for the suffering down here makes more sense as an explanation of the travails of planet Earth than anything else I’ve seen.

            Finally, regarding simulation theory, I know nothing about that. What makes you think it’s a thing?

            Off to watch that Earth disaster doc now, thanks cheese. The notion that the Moon is not what we think, and that there are signs of ancient civilisations there, is something I picked up from listening to Steven Greer (Disclosure project), and that Buzz and the others all acted oddly after returning is familiar. There’s even a speech by Armstrong about that – There are great ideas undiscovered, breakthroughs available to those that can remove one of truth’s protective layers. There are places to go beyond belief.”

            • Withnail says:

              They aren’t cities. Just tunnel complexes like the catacombs of Rome.

            • Cromagnon says:

              Why name a “ moon mission” after the God of the Sun? It was an open admission. They went to the moon to find evidence of cataclysm ( they found vitrification signs everywhere). The moon takes the sun fury and shows the signs of the abuse far longer than the active biosphere covered earth,

              They may have gone to find evidence of prior humans up there ( but I think deals had been made with homo anunna far earlier).

              We are in a simulation simply because it is the only concept that explains all aspects of our reality. It explains the lack of root substance at the subatomic level and explains the “ never ending” nature of the cosmos at the other ( tip of hat to James Webb )…… it explains cataclysm and the base of all worlds religions, it explains reincarnation and many other supernatural/metaphysical phenomena…….

              It does not tell us who is running it overall but the evidence of both an evil presence and a benefactor are present.

          • lurker says:

            so a couple more thoughts on this; given the efforts our ancestors made to build these underground cities, i guess the surface was uninhabitable for a long time, perhaps generations even. i wonder what they did for food; portobello mushrooms will grow in complete darkness on nothing other than human waste (and have the added benefit of turning your shit into soil in the process), so perhaps that was a thing. as a good source of vitamin D, they might have had other benefits, too.

            if that supposition about the surface is right, i wonder if it was because of ongoing radiation after the Sun’s micronova (might also have been due to cold, from watching that doc that cheese linked to); if that’s true, a natural indicator of ambient radiation levels would be pretty useful, to know when it’s safe to venture out…i know nothing about this, a quick look into uranium glass indicates that it glows under UV, i wonder about under other forms of radiation.

            certainly an interesting rabbit hole, cromagnon.

            and a song for ya:

        • Cheese can cause nightmares says:

          From “SuspiciousObservers” channel:

          THE Earth Disaster Documentary

          • Cromagnon says:

            Yes, Ben Davidson gets it, so does Robert Schock. These are materialists…… if you throw in Jason Breshears you get the next level of thinking regards to simulacrum likelihood (100%).

            Remember,…. This is common knowledge to the powerful on this world. They knew most of it from old texts back before Industrial Revolution. 1902 was last reset (sociological)…..most of humanity never even noticed their world had changed fundamentally inside of 1-2 years.

            We are more than we think we are,… the demiurge tries its damndest to prevent us discovering it.

            I fear most never will now,….. full reset is nearly here.

            • Kowalainen says:

              “We are more than we think we are,… the demiurge tries its damndest to prevent us discovering it.”

              Within temptation is truth, and Lucifer smiles at your petty little desires, hopiates, copiums, cravings and suffering.


              In the mean time:
              Hypers gonna hyper!
              MOARons gonna moaron!

              In perpetuity ad nauseam.
              ☯️ 🤢 🤮

            • Fast Eddy says:

              Till death do they part…

              Getting ready for the cranking….

            • Kowalainen says:

              Yep Imma send the crankenstein down (and up) the hill today it seems.

              It’s gonna suck (the up part), but hey, it is what it is I reckon. Now what was it again? Yes right:

              “Hope (and cope) is for suckers”
              — Alan Watts

              (“Saving the world”, just WTF is that?)


          • Perhaps. There are a lot of things we don’t know. It the theory is true, it would be awfully hard to work around its bad effects with 8 billion people.

            • Cromagnon says:

              There won’t be 8 billion people for very long.
              I suspect this world had many many millions if not billions on its surface in antiquity. Those teeming hordes vanished in an afternooon when the last mega reset took place when this simulacrum had towering glacial ice on most of the North American continent.

              The solar dust shell impact struck directly onto the ice mass of North America with utterly devastating results. The rise of sea levels along with the mega tsunamis literally removed 95% of urban development (coastal cities) from the realm. There is much evidence of pyramids and cityscapes on continental shelves.

              I surmise that the ufo activity is likely a combination of simulacrum monitoring equipment (perhaps human or higher dimensional monitoring an experiment that is our world) and devices from the underworld that gives a home to an older version of ourselves ( that survived past cataclysm with technology intact).

              Surface elites know all this. Deals have been worked on, arrangements made.

              Homo sapiens and Homo anunna (and quite likely several other homo varieties) that are trapped in this realm will weather the coming storms of heaven as best we can.

              I now believe that there is a degree of protection offered to those who “go their own way” and do not bow to the collective. The construct is benign and neutral in the sense that it does not pick sides. If you acknowledge it’s presence and take some tangible actions toward your desires, it will allow you to make manifest of what you wish for within limits (Move to high ground).
              There is an adversary inside the construct which is probably intrinsic to the program….. the demiurge,….. it is demonic. If you talk to “ old gods” (as I did in earlier days) it will toy with you and confuse/horrify you. It will tell you it is the oversoul……it is not.

              Long story short,….. The over soul is neutral but it does not tolerate fools. The demiurge is satanic and wants you for itself.
              Most humans who are forced to survive on the surface world as cataclysm arrives will do so through prudence ( move to high ground), toughness, luck and most important,…. sympathetic magic ( acknowledge what this world is,….. live as though it is a blessing to bear witness,….. ) and be proud that reality allowed your soul to be here at “ the end times” ( this time around).

            • Fast Eddy says:

              Spent fuel ponds = cancer

      • Fast Eddy says:

        Just make sure you are on the dark side of the Earth when it happens.

        • Cromagnon says:

          Being in Hawaii or on any pacific island ( don’t matter how high) is very very bad. Eastern China and Malaysia will get smashed. That is where the dust shell will strike this go around. Europe and parts of Africa will take the initial flash of high intensity radiations.
          This is a construct,….. we know roughly where things will occur. The americas got smashed last time…. We lost almost all our megafauna and got physically devastated far beyond the rest of the planet. The flash is bad,…. The dust shell far worse,…. If the crust unlocks from the mantle then a vast deluge swamps the world.

      • Tim Groves says:

        Shot from a muzzle 1000,000 times the diameter of earth.

        Earth diameter
        12,742 km

        Sun diameter
        1,392,000 km

        Ratio of sun to earth diameter
        1,392,000 divided by 12,742 equals 109.245

        Cromagnon’s exaggeration factor
        1,000,000 divided by 109.245 equals 915.3737

        Rather than the full Lucifer’s Hammer,, which in the novel was produced by an encounter with a comet, we may be fortunate enough to only get hit with the size of solar flair imagined in another of Larry Niven’s stories, Inconstant Moon.


  18. AlfredCairns says:

    Here is an interesting article about how Russia is moving its energy exports east.



    • This is an interesting article about the problems of transporting oil, coal, and other goods from the western part of Russia to the eastern part of Russia for export. There are only two railroad lines with limited capacity going East. They cannot ship all that is needed. There is some possibility of shipping oil along the north coast of Russia, if enough tankers can be recruited and there is not too much problem with ice.

      The article also talks about Russia perhaps having a better growth rate than the US and Europe this year.

      • Withnail says:

        The war seems to be have been a great idea for Russia’s economy.

        Now they have all that cheap gas at home to run their own factories.I understand that the world’s largest paper/cardboard mill has recently opened in Russia.

    • ivanislav says:


      I take issue with state planning being the explanation. Their energy production per capita is much larger than ours, and when that’s the case, it’s pretty hard not to have a decent growth rate. They would have a high growth rate at this point, state planning or not.

  19. banned says:

    Sars COV 2 track n trace religious material. (fly girl track n trace dance troupe)
    You do believe dont you?

    Ah those were the days!


  20. banned says:

    Multiple countermeasures deployed?


  21. Hubbs says:

    The boa constrictor doesn’t actually squeeze you more tightly until after you exhale.
    Seems like wind is surely getting squeezed.


    These wind turbines remind me of those moai statues on Easter Island.

    • Student says:

      thank you

    • This is a related Bloomberg article.

      It says:

      Oil will rise back above $100 a barrel this year and may face a serious supply problem in 2024 as spare production capacity runs out, according to Goldman Sachs Group Inc.

      With sanctions likely to cause Russian oil exports to drop and Chinese demand expected to recover as the country ends its Covid Zero policy, prices will rise above $100 from their current level of around $80, according to Goldman.

      A lack of spending in the industry on production needed to meet demand will also be a driver of higher prices, and this lack of capacity may become a big issue by 2024, analyst Jeff Currie said on the sidelines of a conference in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, on Sunday.

      Or the higher price could push the world economy into recession, I would say.

  22. Pingback: La multiplication des éoliennes, panneaux solaires et véhicules électriques ne résoudra pas notre problème énergétique – Anthropocène

  23. Herbie Ficklestein. says:

    This caught my eye..

    GRAND FORKS, N.D.—For more than two years, the mayor of this city near the Minnesota border backed a Chinese company’s plans to build a $700 million corn mill on the outskirts of town, citing the prospect of new jobs, added tax revenue and another place for farmers to sell their corn.

    Then last week Brandon Bochenski reversed course, hours after the release of a letter from an Air Force official declaring the corn-mill project a security risk because of its proximity to the Grand Forks Air Force Base 12 miles away.

    “When it comes to national security, I don’t think the economics matter,” said Mr. Bochenski, a former professional hockey player who previously played in Russia and was elected mayor in 2020. “You’ve got to draw a hard line there.”

    Mr. Bochenski said he and other officials who had supported the project would now block the development by the U.S. branch of Fufeng Group Ltd., 546 -1.62%decrease; red down pointing triangle which still owns the 370 acres of land. Fufeng didn’t respond to a request for comment on what steps it may take.

    The episode reflects intensifying concerns over whether the U.S. should be restricting the ability of foreigners, particularly from China, to buy American farmland or agricultural businesses.

    Lawmakers and others say they want to make sure the U.S. food-supply chain is protected and that China and other foreign adversaries aren’t able to use U.S. land as a perch for spying. Worries about China’s espionage deepened after a suspected Chinese spy balloon was identified in U.S. airspace and later shot down over the Atlantic on Saturday.

    “Grand Forks and Fufeng became a flashpoint for a much broader discussion,” said Sen. Kevin Cramer (R., N.D.), who had raised concerns for months over the project. “The country collectively realized we had not been keeping our eye on the ball,” he said.

    Some also worry that wealthy foreign owners could price domestic farmers out of the market or seek to skirt U.S. environmental standards.

    Wall Street Journal..By Kristina PetersonFollow
    and Anthony DeBarrosFollow
    | Photographs by Lewis Ableidinger for The Wall Street Journal

    • My residential neighborhood is zoned for single family homes. A Chinese builder recently bought a half-acre lot near our home. We live on the edge of Kennesaw State University Campus. The Chinese builder built what looks a whole lot like what I would expect a dormitory for 32 Chinese students, plus two to four other people to live in. (I walked around the inside the building and saw the layout.) The basement has four parking spaces.

      The Chinese builder claims that he is building a home for his extended family who is coming from China. Someone has said that the floor plan filed is not the one he is building from.

      These are two photos I took of the building.


      Clearly zoning laws give structure and organization to a neighborhood. They, more or less, mandate more energy use for getting to work and shops. But as energy limits are hit, there is pressure for them to go away.

      I am not sure I am personally opposed to the building. If the new building really houses Chinese foreign students, I would doubt that they would add a huge number of cars without parking spaces. I would expect Chinese foreign students to be well-behaved, if we are not at war with China.

      But it does illustrate how easy it is to circumvent the laws.

      • Herbie Ficklestein. says:

        That is eye opening and doubt the code enforcement will allow this to become such, especially if the neighborhood residents get together and make a complaint.
        Imagine in China the building codes are more lax and with a little brown paper bag can be altered.
        The thing is, how do we expect to China to recycle the US dollars they accumulate in our trade exchange?
        They need to do something that makes sense with their Greenbacks.
        These barriers is worrisome and seems we are a confrontational mode that will lead to a hostile exchange.
        There seems to be some puffing up the chest in military encounters…

      • Ed says:

        You need a new planning board. Why did they approve this? It is clearly not what is meant by “single family house”.

        • There is a great deal of pressure for higher density, since the area is right next to a university with 43,268 students in 2022. Unlike most universities, it has seen growing enrollment. There is a mild climate and standards for foreign students knowing English are not very high, so the university is attractive to students from warm parts of the world.

          The lot where the new building I wrote about earlier is being built was a difficult one to build on. The lot is quite steep–hence the need for the high wall, especially if a big building was being built. Someone building a single family home would find the lot unattractive for that purpose. The resale price would need to be very high, relative to other homes in the area.

          Coincidentally, after I wrote the first comment on this subject, I went out on a walk and ran into some neighborhood residents talking about a hearing tomorrow on a single family home (1.5 block away from the building I wrote about earlier) whose new owner has put in a request to re-zone the home (probably 4 bedrooms, two baths) to become a student center. The group owning the home is a Jewish group, so this would be a center for Jewish students.

          I suppose part of the problem is that KSU classes are taught on two different campuses, 10 miles apart. Quite often, students live at one end and have classes at the other end, or need to go to the opposite end for some of the classes. There are often one or two hour gaps a student needs to fill while at the “wrong” campus, especially if the person has a job as well. The Student Center would provide an alternative to going to the library to study.

          The catch is that there isn’t much parking available near the single family home. There are also no sidewalks in that area. The proposal at tomorrow’s hearing is to allow up to 50 participants at a time at this home. Neighbors are concerned that if this rezoning goes through, they will have students driving up, parking illegally, and walking in the road (as I nearly always do). Also, this rezoning would provide a precedent for the next building up for rezoning. I am guessing that the building I referenced earlier will want rezoning, sometime soon.

          • Lastcall says:

            Wow, no footpaths/sidewalks! That is quite the commitment to life on wheels.

            • There are no sidewalks on the street I live on. The area was built up in the mid-1970s. No one ever imagined that anything other than cars would be used for transportation. The lots are one half acre in size, which is pretty big, relative to the homes on the lots. Most of this goes for big lawns and lots of trees. The area was originally forested. If a person doesn’t keep pulling up the many “volunteers,” it quickly becomes forested again.

  24. Student says:

    Just speaking from a theoretical point of view, in your opinion, is it possible to trigger an earthquake ?

    Of course, just to talk about fantasy ideas, not related to reality…

    ..read inside, I don’t post the name of the place..



    • drb753 says:

      At the exact moment of the 2011 earthquake in Japan, there was a US Navy vessel directly above the epicenter. Also the seismic wave had (initially) abnormally high amplitude high frequency components.

    • Retired Librarian says:

      A comment by Banned yesterday triggered me to look up Tectonic weapons. I posted here that I found a lot of interesting reading. I was then surprised to hear about the Turkey earthquake! There are so many things to think about. I did a basic search in Brave.

      • Cromagnon says:

        The major cause of all seismic activity on earth is from solar geo-electric influence.
        Put simply….. the sun causes earth quakes and we have learned to predict them based on this.
        In the next 2 decades we gonna get a full scale planet wide demo of this fact.
        Earth is the suns beotch and her crust is gonna buckle and tear when the sun tells her “times up”.

        We are so utterly f…….ed.

        Not enough old souls on this orb I guess?

        • Cro

          we are all entitled to ‘believe’ as we choose.

          But there has to come a moment when common sense kicks in, and tells you somebody is making all this stuff up for reasons best known to themselves.

          • Cromagnon says:

            To each their own Norman.

            To each their own.

            I am just trying to enjoy the last decades of this life as best I can.
            I am not gifted in sympathetic magic but I am cursed with a talent for diagnosis.

            That said:
            I had a prescient dream many years ago before I ever discovered simulacrum theory…..
            It involved my sons and a future in a lost world.

            I also had several encounters with what I now recognize as a demonic…… it saved my life in several cases where it should have been lost….. but it did it over and over……

            When I stopped communication with it,…. the situations stopped.

            I was as far from the mystical as it gets. Woo-woo in my world will kill ya.
            But I can think and I can recognize a con from a long way back.

            I may have details wrong, but there is a big bloody rabbit at the end of the Warren I have explored.

            Maybe I will recognize you on the other side. I will try a passing high five if you want?

            • Fast Eddy says:

              I had a dream last night — was in a flying car with two other people and M Fast… the car crash landed… M Fast was severely injured.. doctors wanted to do surgery — I didn’t trust them … then i woke up

      • banned says:

        Turkey has been playing the field pretty hard lately. Not behaving about Finland and Sweden.

        (whip sound)
        (whip sound)

      • banned says:

        This might be of interest. Earthquake discussion. Italy is mentioned. Apparently an earthquake whisperer.


    • I don’t know.

  25. Gail. I need to poke the bear a bit on your comment, “…but solar electricity is disproportionately available in the summer…”

    As you know, insolation, solar energy from the sun, is available all seasons. But there are multiple reasons prohibiting the sun from pelting the planet, not just the season change e.g. weather, cloud coverage, or other connection problems.

    Case in point. Minnesota. The average peak sun hours of sun in Minnesota is ~4.5 peak sun hours/day, which is adequate for justifiying installing solar PV. By comparison, the average peak sun hours in California is ~5.4 sun hours/day – ~5.8 sun hours/day. Achieving peak sun hours disproportionally has more to do with the latitude of this location, not necessarily JUST the season. If one adds tilt axis tracking to their array, the insolation can increase to ~6 sun hours/day. But yeah, this only affirms your point on the complexity of adding more technology.

    I thought this SolarHot Dish campaign nicely told the story about solar in Minnesota 11 years years ago. https://youtu.be/VTYdIRlg50k

    • In Minnesota, you need both tracking and a way to keep snow off the solar panels in winter. Both of these add complexity and costs. Homeowners likely will not be able to maintain these systems adequately, either, causing problems for the utility trying to deal with the intermittent electricity. There is also the incredibly high “acquisition cost” of individual homeowner systems, pushing the purchase price through the roof. The cost of the many additional transmission lines is hidden. I am not encouraging anyone in Minnesota to buy these devices.

    • ivanislav says:

      I looked at some graphs a while ago that showed solar generation is about half during winter from the summer peak. If generation is half during winter, the fact that “peak hours”, whatever that is, only fell 20%, is irrelevant.

      • drb753 says:

        My brother in law in Northern Italy goes from a peak of 0.3 kW to a peak of 2.5 kW, winter summer. There are clouds and fog too.

        • ivanislav says:

          Wow, what a difference. I think the graphs I’m talking about were USA, maybe even a past article by Gail.

          • drb753 says:

            To be honest, Northern Italy is quite foggy in winter. But they should be expect to be without washing machine for entire winters.

          • Most of the early installations were in places like Hawaii and California. They are quite far south, especially Hawaii. They don’t have the problem with cloud cover in winter.

            I could make some charts showing patterns for northern states, but I haven’t gotten around to it yet.

    • banned says:

      PV panels are the most inexpensive components and have the longest service life of the components in a system.

      Tracking? Just add 20% more panels instead.

      Not enough power in the winter? Add 20% more panels.

      Set up your fixed angle of declination for a winter bias.

      Since the biggest difference of angle of declination is winter to summer you dont really need to track just have adjustable panel mounts but guess what instead… More panels.

      When it snows your out with a broom in the morning. Snow is a big reason not to roof mount if it snows where you live. With most PV panels a small area not getting sun cuts the entire panels output. In whatever portion of the PV panel in series any reduction in current applies to the whole string. Covering a square foot on one panel can reduce the whole string output by 75%. More panels doesnt solve this.

      Battery consumption not winter sun availability is the archiles heel of a non grid tied PV system. Cloudy days effect battery consumption much more than winter sun. While there is usually some diffuse sunlight on cloudy days more panels doesnt help lower power availability. A gen set must be run on cloudy days. The metric I would look at for PV suitability is cloudy days for a geographic location.

      Increasing battery capacity for longer service life is more constrained by system requirements of voltage. This constraint means a lot more $ to increase battery capacity than panels and they are more of a consumable than a component.

      Good solar batteries have lead times. Why? Old batteries have diminished capacity so they lose value. No one wants to store batteries not the manufacturer not the distributor. The manufacturers get orders THEN make the batteries. When your battery set dies your house goes dark until you get your hands on a new set. If your distributor has a six week lead time your dark for six weeks. A six week FE challenge. Been there done that. Gen set time.

      A grid power plant gets fed fossil fuels. A PV system gets fed products of fossil fuels. Its like slaughtering your own livestock vs buying meat at the store. Grid power is like meat in nice packaging at the grocery store. Its easy to ignore its origin.

      • PeterEV says:

        What are the alternatives for cooking and staying warm in the winter? If you don’t use fossil fuels or renewables such as solar and/or wind, you’re left with wood. Gail, from our Oil Drum days, there are not enough trees to supply what we have become accustomed to having. the other part is that burning that much wood is unhealthy for both humans and the environment. Any more than 150 sources of wood burning per square mile is dangerous to human health. I saw the broken down beater pickups piled high with wood during the 80’s. The smoke filled air existing day and night. I don’t want to go back to that for me, my family and friends.

        I don’t think we want to go there. Therefore, the alternative is to use solar and wind and make them work. Why did the wind turbines catch fire? How do we correct the problems? Is this not being addressed???

        My PV system is working fine even after 10 years of installation. What do I have to do to reduce my energy usage? How do I store any excess for later use? How do I manage my energy needs with energy production? How do I store excess generation for future use on a cloudy day?

        I find this site saying it can’t be done; not how to fix and overcome the deficiencies. If we don’t, we will have smoke filled cities, towns, and states. I’d rather work to find solutions.

        • Fred says:

          Aha! A new, green optimist arrives. Quick team, get to work on him.

        • banned says:

          “I find this site saying it can’t be done; not how to fix and overcome the deficiencies. If we don’t, we will have smoke filled cities, towns, and states. I’d rather work to find solutions.”

          What cant be done? Lots of stuff can be done. What cant be done is to create the abundant materials available now without fossil fuels. Get off your high horse. Preaching from your high horse.

          Not going to be much smoke after everything is burned kiddo. That wont take long once the fossil fuels are gone. the solution doesnt involve human intervention or actions. The solution is coming. Justice is coming. We wont like it. I wont like it. You wont like it.

          You might want to look into impedance matching with PVs to provide heat. You have to start with a small well insulated structure to start. Impedance matching allows use of PV power without batteries or electronics. PVs are current devices. If you set impedance too high no current flows or only flows at peak sunlight. If you set current too low you are only going to get a small amount of power. 65% is optimum.

          Example your panels are 9 amps 40 volts.

          9ax.65= 5.85A

          A 1500 watt 240v water heater element is generally the best load for heating. $10. 39 ohms

          Six 40v panels in series yields 240 volts. i=v/r
          240/39 = 6.15 a. Little high but there is wire voltage drop (not much at 240v 6a).

          Dc frys switches. If you were to take your standard $1.25 AC light switch and put in series with those six panels in the open position.

          nothing would happen. no current flow

          If you closed the switch current would flow
          nothing would happen(besides current flowing)

          Now if you were to open the switch(with a piece of wood)
          Somthing happens
          A arc would form pretty much similar in appearance to a arc welder and the switch would be destroyed in short order. Anything flammable in the area would combust. DC arcing. Pretty impressive at 240v dc.

          Switches used with PV must have appropriate DC ratings. This rules out conventional water heater thermostats. Because of this PV used for heating is best dumped into thermal mass. A STEEL 55 gallon barrel filled with water and gravel works for a 240v 1500watt element. Gravel in the water allows 4x energy stored. During the day the temperature rises without boiling(gravel). At night the heat transfers via convection and the gravel and water cool for the next blast when the sun comes out. 1″ conduit couplers match the straight threads of a heating element. Some epdm for gasket material. 30 amp 600v (dc rating not AC) motor disconnect switch fused for 8A.

          If the water evaporates and you dont fill that heating element melts just like the AC light switch. STEEL barrel- gravel. Burn ward scrub tanks not that fun.

          Two of those in a 400sq foot space insulated to r60 walls and r80 ceiling is comfortable(hypothetically).

          Where did ALL of the materials i described come from?
          FOSSIL FUELS

          Sure eliminate combustion. Ive done it.(hypothetically) I like it. (hypothetically) PVs can not and will not support industrial civilization. Spout about solutions all you want. Words are just words. We are honest here. You want to virtue signal your business. IMO virtue signalling is contrary to solutions. Wave your kumbyah flag furiously until that EPDM gasket material materializes. Where I grew up we had a term. Jive.

          Why not use ac? The load would kill your batteries in short order first time it pulled amps at night. You move the energy to the thermal mass for storage and convert it to heat. Sun goes away current stops. heat moves to structure air. No switches needed. No cold supply air for combustion needed. (air is needed for breathing!)You need to go to dc-dc SSRs for DC loads if you want switch/thermostat function.

          Chassis grounds and overcurrent devices are the foundation of electrical safety. DC will fry you just as fried as AC. That 8a fuse will not protect you like modern ground fault AC over current devices.

          Look im sympathetic. That high horse has got to go.

          Greenwashing is a narcissist magnet.

          All material presented is hypothetical for informational purposes. All electrical work should be performed by a licensed electrician.


        • Fast Eddy says:

          I’d recommend you keep some Super Fent on hand.

        • Withnail says:

          I find this site saying it can’t be done; not how to fix and overcome the deficiencies. If we don’t, we will have smoke filled cities, towns, and states. I’d rather work to find solutions.

          We are going to have much bigger problems than air pollution to deal with such as having no food and toilets not flushing.

          We don’t need to worry about pollution in cities because there won’t be any cities.

          Collapse always involves deurbanisation as well as depopulation.

        • ivanislav says:

          >> How do I store any excess for later use?

          How much later? You could heat a large insulated mass and then extract heat as needed (via piped water, or a mechanism to adjust the insulation level), to reduce your heating needs.

          • banned says:

            Im quite fond of the gravel water combination to store heat from either passive solar or as above. Im a minimalist at heart and these are basic materials from the earth. Heat is the lowest form of energy. From a esthetic point of view I consider nuclear power incredibly crude. We split the atom but are only able to use the heat?

            The reason dirt has been abandoned in modern building as a building material is fourfold. One the degree to which energy moves through dirt is a function of its water content and this is often variable and not linear. The first 10 percent of water content increases thermal conductivity at a rate much more than the remaining 90% till saturation. The second is that dirt holds a lot of heat energy so it soaks up heat and this is commonly regarded as a loss as it is difficult to insulate. The third is bringing the heat into the air in a manner that we are accustomed to is not easy to engineer either. Fourth is it is heavy and not easily moved and shaped. It takes a lot of energy to move and shape. Dirt is not a well trained dog as a building material. It sniffs what it wants for as long as it wants. It walks you you dont walk it. Its a fabulous breed but not for everyone.

            A barrel of filled with water and gravel might possibly hold 60 Kwh relative to 68 degree ambient. A barrel of oil has 1700 Kwh energy. While this superb energy density is part of oils great value more important is the higher form of energy it possesses in its covalent bonds that lends itself to the plethora of uses we have found for it. Much of what is regarded as human accomplishment via the idea of technology is in reality the result of finding uses for petrochemicals. While storing heat in thermal mass may have some industrial applications such as foundrys it is but a clam to the fossil fuel T-rex.

  26. Student says:

    (Financial Times)

    ‘Talc ruling a blow to Johnson & Johnson and the ‘Texas two-step’ bankruptcy jig
    Ruling by US court will make companies think twice about using Chapter 11 schemes to handle lawsuits’ […]
    ‘J&J, which began selling baby powder in 1894, denies its talc-based products contain traces of asbestos and cause cancer. It initially fought claimants in the civil courts, winning more cases than it lost. But when a Missouri court ordered J&J to pay more than $2bn to a group of nearly two dozen women who claimed their cancer was caused by its talc, the company adjusted its strategy.’ […]
    ‘For claimants, some of whom are terminally ill, a resolution of the talc cases cannot come soon enough. Shawn “Val” Johnson, who has mesothelioma, a type of cancer linked to asbestos, won a $27mn personal injury award from J&J just days before it deployed the “Texas two-step”. He is still waiting to be paid.
    “I’ve been sick for three and half years now unable to do very much and a big effect on my family . . . they [my doctors] don’t expect me to live very long,” Johnson told the Financial Times.’


    • I have been noticing articles about the J&J not being allowed to use bankruptcy to get out of lawsuits. It seems to be a corporate practice to have lots of individual companies. Then, it something goes wrong in one, it is possible let it go bankrupt. I don’t know exactly what happened here. J&J seemed to know that the baby powder caused problems, but it continued to sell it in quite a few places in the world.

  27. Rodster says:



    • Herbie Ficklestein. says:

      So, we go Medieval…
      Pulp Fiction..

    • I am not sure I would agree with quite a bit of this article. The final paragraph gets things right:

      The current passion to convert into a world with intermittent electricity is oblivious to the unintended consequences of a world without fossil fuels. The signatories to the green movement have failed to imagine how life was without that industry that did not exist before 1900 when we had, NO medications and medical equipment, NO vaccines, NO water filtration systems, NO sanitation systems, NO fertilizers to help feed billions, NO pesticides to control locusts and other pests, NO communications systems, including cell phones, computers, and I Pads, NO vehicles, NO airlines that now move 4 billion people around the world, NO cruise ships that now move 25 million passengers around the world, NO merchant ships that are now moving billions of dollars of products monthly throughout the world, NO tires for vehicles, and NO asphalt for roads, and NO space program. Looking back just a few short centuries, we have come a long way since the pioneer days. Climate change is important, but so is economic survivability.

  28. nikoB says:

    Question for all.

    Do you have a significant other and do they understand the overshoot predicament we are in or is it an of limits subject?

    I luckily have a partner that I can talk about these issues with. She is on board but not wanting to discuss things regularly but I think she sees the value in letting me let off steam every now and then.

    Curious to hear your thought OFWers.

    • el mar says:

      When I want trouble, I start talking about the finite world.The subject is consequently denied.


      el mar

    • D. Stevens says:

      My significant other believes science & technology will provide. I’ve mostly avoided the subject of overshoot because our relationship is already strained due to C19. Any suggestion of our civilization possibly collapsing goes into the internet conspiracy nonsense bin. I’ve decided it’s fine because I have the internet communities for collapse while in real life with him it’s good times and fun. Enjoy that BAU while it lasts but it sometimes makes me sad. He has children from a prior marriage and I have no children so maybe that’s the difference. If you have kids and grandkids you need to be more optimistic to carry on.

    • ivanislav says:

      Women tend to prioritize comfort – psychological and otherwise – to a greater degree than men. I think you are asking for trouble.

      • Dennis L. says:

        I am not an expert, so this is an educated guess:

        Women are generally more agreeable then men; it is probably a function of their being mothers. Men do the hard lifting, make the hard choices. Our society in the West has promoted women into positions for which they may not be designed temperamentally, it does not seem to work.

        This may be a function of the universe being very successful in a Praeto way, 20% works, 80% does not and the universe just moves on. A determinist philosophy wants everything to be perfect, all initial conditions to be refined to produce perfection. Perfection is the enemy of good enough. Philosophy seems at first approximation to have been dealing with this issue for ages.

        We are facing some hard choices, they will be made, it will be bumpy, but something is tweaking the universe to work in the way it does, things will be fine. Our job as men is to find a way through; quitting is not an option.

        Dennis L.

        • the prime function of woman, is to utter the immortal words;

          “Do you really think that is a good idea?”

          Men being born idiots, ignore it, and go ahead anyway.

          Whereupon the next (often unsaid) phrase comes up–“I told you so”.

          The female of our species has an inbuilt survival instinct, which men largely miss out on. It takes a lifetime to figure that out, by which time it doesn’t matter anyway.

          • Dennis L. says:


            Men/women are different, when choosing a partner in any endeavor a compliment is best, 1+1=3 in this case.

            We have built up stereotypes perhaps from TV, I have observed a number of marriages close up, none are perfect, some work much better than others and I suspect the partners match genetically such that defects in offspring are avoided.

            Denigrating people seldom produces results, building a team is for the few, they are called: “boss.”

            Dennis L.

          • Lidia17 says:

            My husband and I have a running argument: to him everything is “impossible”. He’s a good guy, but just has something lacking in the initiative department. I’m always the one with some new project I want to tackle.

            I don’t know whether it’s genetic temperament, or just having the initiative beaten out of him by his structured Italian upbringing: not being allowed to play freely; having everything done by whatever union or specialized guild… He likes to watch people work that we hire; I want to join in the work or, better, do it myself when I can.

            Me: “Let’s plaster the walls ourselves!”
            Him: “That’s impossible.”


      • Lidia17 says:

        I think women tend to go along with group thinking because the cost to them not to do so is much greater.

        I’ve always had a more ‘masculine’ outlook towards life, and get irritated being around women too much.

        • Fred says:

          Lidia, “I think women tend to go along with group thinking because the cost to them not to do so is much greater.” could be the start of a long running debate.

          What I observe is that well paid women in professional/government jobs are the loudest exponents of group think, the first to put pronouns in their email signatures etc.

          My point is if they’re “strong, independent women” in a well paid job, why do they go along with group think and what’s this cost you’re alluding to?

          • Lidia17 says:

            It’s not a rational, ‘today’, cost..I’m talking about ancient biological programming. It’s only in the most recent phase of modernity that women can be superficially independent and “make it” on their own. As you point out, they still can’t shake their natural instincts.

            There are still plenty of traditional societies even today where women’s stepping out of line carries a cost of rape, disfigurement, and death.

            So of course women are going to be used as a political vanguard by unscrupulous actors: they are ridiculously easy to steer emotively. Women have always been the footsoldiers of social ‘policing’, and ostracism of women comes mainly from other women, I reckon.

            Modern women are going to be among the most committed of communists, I think, since—the family structure having been eroded, and the power of men curtailed—women and their children are increasingly reliant on The State for protection and sustenance… I think this could be a very significant number of women today.

            • DB says:

              Excellent observations. I can’t remember exactly in which book by I read it, but Robin Fox and/or Lionel Tiger (both anthropologists) once noted that modern single women are effectively married to the state, and thus tend to advocate for collectivist policies.

              As contrary examples to this thread of comments, though, some of the most articulate dissidents of the Covid era are women, such as Catherine Austin Fitts, Sasha Latypova, Katherine Watt, and of course, Gail.

            • Cromagnon says:

              It is quite literally 100% of all western females.
              I have observed it over and over.
              I had people from “ inside the system” using this dynamic has been a major mechanism of controlling men for the last 50 years.

              I have confidence however that as the energy matrix collapses and/ or we get hit by coming reset mechanisms ( solar outburst and cataclysm) that male warbands will form at warp drive.

              Women will instantly react via their programming and become “lacking in opinion outside the firelight”.

        • ivanislav says:

          I would agree regarding group-think and prioritizing harmony and empathy over fairness as a result of biological imperatives and the relatively greater risk from violence.

    • Mrs S says:

      I allude to it but cannot discuss in detail with my husband. He’s just not interested.

      Thankfully I successfully persuaded him not to get jabbed.

      He thinks things are in the mess they are in because politicians are foolish and greedy.

    • Ed says:

      My wife understands overshoot. Her primary concern is impact on our three sons.

      • impact on your offstring is always the fear—having g/grandkids is the worst, even though their parents are successful. you know they wont be.

        could be wrong of course.

        I wont be around to see it

        • Fast Eddy says:

          Or you just inject the grand kids with Rat Juice.. to protect your carcass… kill them off and then you dont have to worry about what happens to them when BAU collapses

          right norm?

      • Fast Eddy says:

        Tell everyone dies. Get over it

    • Lidia17 says:

      My husband gets it. He’s not a real hands-on sort of guy, though (musician and programmer). He does take care of the chickens. He likes reading history, so understands cycles of civilizational collapse. Understands diminishing returns on technology. I’m pretty lucky, all things considered.

      He did admit that if he hadn’t married me, he’d probably have taken the jab.That’s kind of a sad thought…

      • banned says:

        Remind him you saved his ass everyday!!
        It sounds like you two are a good match. People who want to plaster walls themselves need sensible people around. Otherwise you end up with 37 projects.
        Your world a R&D facility.

    • Fast Eddy says:

      Unfortunately M Fast thoroughly understands the situation and uses it to justify an endless spending spree.

      • banned says:

        Whats good for the goose…

        Whats the good life if not shared?

        • Fast Eddy says:

          Fast Eddy gets no ‘thrill’ out of buying stuff. But he does like Bat Mobiles — M Fast is quick to point to Fast’s Bat Mobile saying – ya you buy nothing — you dress like a hobo — then you buy something like that offsetting my burn for the past 10 yrs… people must think you are a drug dealer or a car thief.

          Thank heaven she doesn’t know about the burn at the VIP Room …

      • Yorchichan says:

        Lol. Similarly, my wife is willing to pretend to believe in collapse if she thinks I’ll be willing to convert some of my cash into gold jewellery.

  29. Student says:

    Please let me introduce a different subject to have some pleasant distraction.
    We talked about Kurdish and so let’s learn something of them:

    Talking about boundaries, Kurds are a little bit Turkish, a little bit Syrian, a little bit Iraqi, a little bit Iranian, a little bit Armenian.
    They are very interesting.
    The singer of the song that follows starts singing after a minute and a half. They are not afraid of long intros. Then there is also the man.
    They use very ancient instruments that are wonderful.

    • Student says:

      And this is an example of one of their dances.
      They are an ancient population with long history and they are very interesting.
      Besides our discussion of collapse (which is true), the world is also a wonderful place.
      Have a nice day.

    • Fast Eddy says:

      Is it the Kurds who keep goats for mistresses? I know the Afghan men have a thing for young boys dressed in women’s panties

      ‘normal’ is subjective

  30. Piloted by rich nations in partnership with South Africa, that success story is now coming to a country near you. Canada is now also about to receive a “Just Energy Transition”. But this lady doesn’t seem to like the idea much though:

    • Ed says:

      The book version of this is “Earth For All:a survival guide for humanity” a Club of Rome product. It uses the method cover everything with the phrases equity, justice, fair, green, healthy, inclusive and then simply state what should be done without any reasoning, engineering, calculation.

    • This lady seems to cover a range of topics pretty well, with respect to the lack of feasibility of an energy transition.

    • ivanislav says:

      Maybe the Japanese would like some of the future engineers and doctors crossing our southern border en masse from Latin America.

    • drb753 says:

      Japan’s problem, of course, is that it is an american colony. Without the US, there would be already a pipeline and car/train tunnel from Hokkaido to Sakhalin. Ukraine is just in its first years of a harsh school, where you are taught that being a colony of a very centralized empire is not that great.

    • Ed says:

      It is not social collapse it is social change. Changing to a society that can support itself within its national resources. A good thing.

      • Way too many non-working older people, I am afraid. Some of these older people work, but a lot do not. Younger people have mostly moved to the cities, leaving older ones in the country side, according to some things I have heard.

  31. Fast Eddy says:

    Watch till the end…it’s kinda like what Sasha tried on FE… refuse to answer then sing a re tard ed song to drown him out hahaha great https://t.me/c/1588731774/16507

    The thing is…

    FE has thrashed Sasha – exposed her…. turned her inside out… made a total fool of her

    • nikoB says:

      Honestly I think that she will forget the whole interaction within days. That’s how denial works, or perhaps it is disinterest?
      maybe stick to covid rants there not energy, no one cares, we all know that.
      There are very few that get the situation and most of them are on OFW.

      • Fast Eddy says:

        Since it’s not permissible to shoot MORE-ONS… or punch them in the face… bashing them with facts and logic is amusing … it passes the time

      • David says:

        I think a fair number read Surplus Energy Economics, The Automatic Earth, the Great Simplification and Consciousness of Sheep … although the owner of the last one doesn’t have a forum.

        Surely Ed Dowd must know that money is surplus energy?

        • Fast Eddy says:

          I have friends in finance… they know nothing about this issue and are not interested in it.

    • Agamemnon says:

      She’s just convinced of Fitts argument which could be a possibility if there wasn’t a looming energy crisis. But that would be an extreme over reaction so energy is most probable reason.
      (You got some positive feedback.)
      A good debate between Sasha & Norm could settle this
      (Anti pro vax & energy)

      • Fast Eddy says:

        Notice how all these players refuse to discuss energy…. Sasha disagrees then refuses to engage – she says ‘buzz off’

        And the terms that they use were created by the PR Team … Fitts is a Great Reset acolyte right? Where did that come from… https://time.com/collection/great-reset/

        Even when FE attempts to provoke them by asking if there is so much oil left – why do we steam it out of sand? They will not respond.

        Consider they have spent tens of billions on the renewable energy EV delusion… for the purpose of diverting attention from energy depletion … consider the effort that has gonna into manufacturing the GW story … which allows them to vilify oil and drives the overall theme of transition (without mentioning depletion)…

        They’re not going to allow reality to intrude in the final innings of the big game… without question they’d deploy false actors to ensure that the mob is kept off the scent…

        The false actors would be able to appear sincere because they would understand how important their roles are — they know how crucial it is that they keep the mob distracted… they truly believe that their mission is one of good … and it is … it may prevent the Gates of Hell from swinging open … nobody wants the species to go down in an orgy of slashing and ripping and tearing and eating of human flesh…

        We all know what we are capable of… just need to read a little about torture methods that humans have used on each other… or watch this


  32. Fast Eddy says:

    Sasha Latypova
    7 min ago
    yup. cast them elsewhere please. you are wasting precious carbon energy here.

    She is either stooopid … or a false actor.

    Kinda lite on the bio … Bud Lite… Coors Lite… lite.

    Fishy Lite. False Actor Lite…

    Sasha Latypova
    Pharmaceutical and Medical Device Entrepreneur
    Clerio Vision, Inc. The Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth

    Note: I do not work full time anymore and do not use social media regularly. If you send me a message via LinkedIn I may not see it or return it. I apologize in advance.

  33. Fast Eddy says:

    “People are REELING”


    No – anti vaxxers are reeling .. pro vaxxers believe the vaxxes saved tens of millions of lives

  34. Fast Eddy says:

    Sasha Latypova
    just now
    Lol. Buzz off please. I dismiss you and your theories together. You are funny however.


    Fast Eddy
    just now
    I am only casting Mikimoto pearls from my sack here… but everyone seems to think they are worthless gravel.


    I bet she’s hot for FE… she’s way too pale … to the point of looking sick… probably been injected with a highly contagious VD by her DOD minders who are asking that she 4nicate FE and shut down this talk of energy depletion…

    This is Sasha before they injected her


    I guess I can’t post this theory on her SS …

    • Kowalainen says:

      “This is Sasha before they injected her”

      Looks expensive in operation and maintenance.
      Gotta feed that beast attention, hopium, copiates, statuses and prestiges within the herd.

      Question is if she can pull a plough if SHTF, or BAUlite?
      I doubt it.

      • Fast Eddy says:

        These anti vax leaders are taking on a life of their own … celebs in their own right….

        But none of them seem to want to do anything other than preach to the converted…

        Steve ‘I’ll debatcha for a million dollars’ Kirsch won’t make stickers… nobody wants to hire a PI to find Tanya…. nobody wants to organize some pros to coordinate a massive campaign to target the obvious vax injured with comments pointing out the obvious…

        They just wanna rant on the PR Team approved platform … and invite anti vaxxers to rant along … it makes them feel like they are taking real action and that good will prevail.

        Too bad the Viet Cong didn’t know this strategy — they lost millions of fighters and they tortured and murdered anyone who did not support them… but then the internet and SS were not available back then… things are different know – change happens via typing and driving tractors around Amsterdam!

        The PR Team is very capable…

  35. Fast Eddy says:

    this is what happens when a Circus Animal runs into 1500 horse power… Sasha is trying to shift a 500 tonne slab of concrete…

    Meanwhile Fast Eddy continues to cast more pearls at her … if she had any sense she’d realize the value and scamper around collecting them into a purse


  36. Fast Eddy says:

    Sasha update https://sashalatypova.substack.com/p/why-are-they-doing-it/comment/12542389

    She’s become tangled in her own flimsy web

  37. Fast Eddy says:

    Sasha is getting upset with FE. Sasha angry.

    Fast Eddy taunt her to the edge…

    One can see why the Elders think the mob is stooopid… cuz it is…


    • How about following better Substack authors then?

      • Lidia17 says:

        Latypova’s very hot at the moment due to her connection with the premise that it’s the US Department of Defense that is running the entire covid injection show, from development (clearly years before “outbreak”), to manufacture, to deployment.

        If that were the case, it would explain why the NIH, CDC, FDA, etc. are all acting 10 times more cravenly than usual, resisting any enquiries into the now-obviously-catastrophic results of the jabs: it’s literally “not their job”.

        Sage Hana (another sub-stacker) calls Robert Malone “Sherpa”. I’m not really sure where that came from, exactly, but I get the impression it’s because he showed up at a certain time to “guide” us into the correct sort of public questioning regarding the injectables. Latypova could be a next-level sherpa, showing up at just the right moment. IDK. Corrections and other opinions welcome.

        • Fast Eddy says:

          Keep in mind … the PR Team has members who have complex strategies that convince us to buy and do stuff …. tapping into primal urges that we are not even aware of….

          They are chess masters of PR… 1000 steps ahead of even the biggest cynic

          Is Sasha the real deal – or a false actor? No idea. How can one know.

          It can make you go insane if you think to much about this — what is real – what is not? Assume most is not real. That you are being played.

          One only has to look at how the Anti Vaxxers are obviously being played… they latch on to whatever hair brained theory the PR Theory throws to them … like hungry dogs do to bones tossed their way.

          One thing we know is real… is energy depletion … and never is that bone tossed to the rabble… they’d choke on it

          • DB says:

            There’s a lot of this second guessing going on among Covid dissidents now. Having been a dissident on a related public health topic, I suspect most of the Covid dissidents are genuine, as I could never detect fake dissidents among the dissidents I encountered. The mainstream can easily dominate without having to play games with fake dissidents. I’m not saying that fake dissidents don’t exist, but the dissidents are too few and too powerless to warrant much attention from the powers that be. They/we can be and have been neutralized with much less effort than messing around in the dissident pool.

      • Fast Eddy says:

        Sasha is more fun!

  38. Fast Eddy says:

    The Great Corn-Hoolio .. is at rest


  39. Jef Jelten says:

    A message to all the younger generations.

    Those who go before you … don’t give a fuck about you.

    The “boombers, your parents, even the 40 – 50 somethings are done. They will do absolutely nothing to maybe make your world even slightly possible.

    Thing id they are using your own logic and beliefs to support their nonchalance.

    They will invaribly quote your own dismissal of anything that might be not “sustainable” not working out all that well for humanity or any other life on the planet.

    They will say, maybe not in so many words but essentially, actually they will quote you and say “well I’m sure that some new technology will come along and address all these problems. Magic will happen.

    Translation – I’m not going to to worry about it because I will be dead by the time it becomes a problem .

    So you all need to tell your parents and their generation to fuck the hell off and give all their assets to MAKING IT ALL STOP!!!

    • Lastcall says:

      King Canute tried that.
      No stopping this train, not even at the end of the tracks, until its in 8 billion pieces.

    • Fast Eddy says:

      norm is a prime example …he wants all children vaxxed because he believes they can spread covid to him … he ignores the fact that the rat juice does not stop the spread.. basically he’s ok with babies dying of strokes because he feels safer.

      • lol eddy

        i open about 1 comment in 50 from you—just for amusement, to see what daftness you’ve come up with. (I delete the rest without opening)

        just at random, every one I do open seems to have some obsession with me.

        d’you think you should see someone about it?—Having me constantly on your mind 24/7 can’t be good for you. Ranting when there’s nobody to rant at is the stuff of market square politics. —Not good.

        I certainly can’t return the compliment—I do have a life off OFW—you should try it

        • Fast Eddy says:

          Fast understands your obsession with fame … HE just lets a little rub off on you to keep you jolly

          Have you had your bivalent yet?

    • Dennis L. says:


      Children are our only connection with the fabric of the universe. We do our best with what we have and what we know.

      Magic has been happening since the universe began. Lex Fridman has a segment on God; it references a physicist who concludes something has essentially tweaked the universe at various times to make biology happen.

      We are meant to be here, they will think of something.

      Do you have children?

      Dennis L.

      • davidinamonthorayearoradecade says:

        this is the best of all possible worlds.

        and we were meant to be here.

        cue the music:

        • Dennis L. says:

          Whatever you believe you believe.

          Our life is little more than the experiences we have and the memories they make as well as our children. We prepare them as best we can, we do not make guarantees; somehow the universe arranges things and makes them work, but not every time.

          It is very difficult, but being grateful for what works and learning from what does not work seems to help.
          The negativism I see here does not work, at least for me; it leads to despair and missing what is good around one.

          They will think of something, but you are guaranteed nothing and the universe does not owe any of us a living.

          The universe is does not guarantee perfect results, perfection is the enemy of good enough and the universe has done a very incredible job. Have hope, hope that helps.

          Dennis L.

      • Strange coincidences may take place. They have gotten to he world to where it is now.

    • Withnail says:

      Making what stop exactly? We can’t unconsume what has been consumed and we can’t live without continuing to consume what is left.

  40. Fast Eddy says:

    A destination that is so awesome that they have to give away 700,000 airline tickets to try to get anyone to visit hahaha

    Maybe people are not so keen on Totalitarian State Tourism – with Masks!

    This is an example of MOREON-ISM CCP style


  41. Lastcall says:

    All those fairy tales that were passed down through the generations are still relevant today. Communication of wisdom from the past that we ignored to our detriment.

    Had the goldilocks economy (End of History dude….)
    We have had peter pan economists (Gold is a Relic Gordon Brown)
    The Grasshopper and the Ant anyone? (Federal Reserve spending it like thers no tomorrow.
    Emporers New Suit; updated to ‘The President is an Empty Suit’ (where is norm?)
    Boy who Cried wolf……Covid

    We are at Humpty Dumpty time.
    We have fallen/been pushed off the Covid Wall, and the economy ain’t going to be put together again.

    Lots of old walls are again popping up; energy wall/cliff, cultural walls, national borders/walls, religious walls, tribal walls, electronic walls etc.

    The internet marches on until we hit The Wall of Silence.

    “Hello darkness, my old friend
    I’ve come to talk with you again

    And the people bowed and prayed
    To the neon god they made
    And the sign flashed out its warning
    In the words that it was forming
    And the sign said, “The words of the prophets are written on the subway walls and tenement halls
    And whispered in the sound of silence”

    • Fast Eddy says:

      We dumped all that and raced faster towards the cliff.

      Industrial farming was the Rubicon… nuclear energy the Death Knell…

      If we’d stopped before we poured chemicals onto the soil and not unleashed spent fuel… there would have been a massive die off… and we’d have returned to hunting and gathering with population kept under control by food limits and disease.

    • Dennis L. says:

      Ah, music from the sixties, UW Madison, lake, union, sailing. Good memories.

      Dennis .

  42. Fast Eddy says:

    This is how they explore deep space – land on Mars — and operate helicopters when there is near zero atmosphere https://t.me/downtherabbitholewegofolks/64137

  43. Fast Eddy says:

    What amazes me is that a vax injured person (or an anti vaxxer) doesn’t seek revenge… near the end there is a guy within a few metres of him calling him stupid… so they could get at him https://t.me/TommyRobinsonNews/44639

  44. Mirror on the wall says:

    An interesting theory, the 10 ‘commandments’ are actually exhortation to the complete opposite. Reverse psychology? Tell humans what they are ‘not allowed’ to do, and they will instantly do it!

    ‘Thou shalt not lie, is itself a lie!’

    ‘Moral ‘truth’ and other lies!’

    • If a group co-operates, they can get more fossil fuels out. It is necessary to look after the poor for this to happen.

      • Obeying parents helps complexity grow. Knowledge learned by one generation is better passed on to following generations.

        • Dennis L. says:

          Religion is the antithesis of philosophy which many time is hopeless sophistry disguised as wisdom. We are human, our biology works, if it works it is right, if it does not work it is wrong. Anthesis of complexity.

          One hour a week at church is cheaper and has less overhead that all the philosophy departments, follow the money.

          God figured out philosophy, made it simple, threw in some really great music, even Silent Night once a year.

          Dennis L.

          • Curt says:

            Religion pretty much roots in mysticism – experiences that from the outside can be described as “altered state of mind”, but are not explicable by everyday standards of a modern secular world.

            The church otoh, especially in contemporary modern form, is merely what consitutes an “institution” – without a relevant inner experience, merely an empty ritual

            • It is a way for people to make friends; a way to participate in familiar rituals, including singing familiar hymns and songs. It is a time to think about what we are doing and why. It is not as limited as you indicate.

            • Fast Eddy says:

              It’s also an alternative option to Tinder… think about it … if you are a ‘player’ … you go to church … immediate credibility with any hotties in attendance…

              And unlike in a bar setting where females tend to be on the defensive … they would be very receptive to a pick up line in church .. if cloaked appropriately …

              Off the top of my head I’m thinking …. hey — that was a great sermon — that message of ethical behaviour really resonated with me … how’d you like to come by my gaff and read some bible later?

          • Mirror on the wall says:

            Briefly, the relation between religion and philosophy has been conceptualised in various ways.

            If we take philosophy to indicate thought, particularly in its penetrating clarity, then we might say that religion is rooted in thought of varying degrees of clarity. Humans do not always engage with extreme clarity, but they tend to develop ideas or propositions that facilitate their interests, however crudely.

            In other words, religion is rooted in thinking of sorts, sometimes clearer than others.

            Situations change, some people have their say, and maybe extrapolate the cosmos from their own inclinations, and then others do the same, and maybe take an explicitly critical position – and we tend to associate philosophy with the latter.

            Humans are always trying to work out what is going on, or better how it suits them to think about what is going on. History is complex, and situations change, old ideas do not necessarily optimally facilitate the present, and so criticism, or at least new takes, have their role. Likely the more complexity, and historical variations, the more criticism as a conscious movement, but maybe only where extreme clarity is concerned. (Got that thought out of the way there.)

            Some see philosophy as the ‘handmaiden of religion’, namely those dogmatically attached to religious dogmas, who see the role of thinking as to back up dogmas.

            Philosophers tend to see religion as a handmaiden of philosophy, like Plato with his ‘noble lie’. And that seems reasonable in various ways. Unless you are going to propose ‘revelation’ then it all comes down, ultimately to what humans think, however clear or dull their thought. Philosophy aims for clarity, but that does not mean that philosophers expect all to be equally clear, and that is where popular religions come in, to codify what thinkers have thought to be for the best at least for now.

            Human societies tend to be stratified, and there is a Western tradition of seeing social stratification as somewhat mirroring a ‘stratification’ of the soul between reason and the irrational drives. Some people are more rational than others, and the former should rule – Plato. However reason is just a tool of drives, and everything is aimed at the expression of the organic drives – which somewhat reverses Plato’s idealist myth, which is not to say that the myth has no place in society.

            Religions can get entire strata literally on their knees, and totally credulous and compliant, so they are always going to tend to have their appeal to rulers. I am not saying that is how I would have you. And there is always the question of whether we could go beyond that, but that raises serious questions of social breeding, and maybe that is simply not how human societies tend to function.

            Maybe that brief survey gets us onto the same page. Philosophy and religion are not inherently antagonistic, and certainly not rhetorically, that is all in your own mind and the Western tradition does not generally favour such a hostile dichotomy.

            • Kowalainen says:

              “Situations change, some people have their say, and maybe extrapolate the cosmos from their own inclinations”

              Yes, the rapacious primate is exceptionally well versed in lying to itself leading to various forms of absurdity and cringe.

              Shall we just directly type it out, no?

              “The evolutionary process is such that it fashions complexity out of mineral and energy. Wether that complexity is of any curiosity is for the universe to “decide”. We have no say in the matter. The cosmos is unfathomable large and some eternal recurrence of folly won’t really make any difference.”
              — Oat Jesus

              In the mean time:

              (Just send it)


    • Dennis L. says:


      Investing is the game of not losing money; and the second rule of investing is not to forget the first. Minimizing errors is essential to living.

      Trying hard not to make it personal, but the commandments are not meant as an absolute, we break them all the time, but something is better than nothing. One murder is preferable to ten and easier to live with in a community. Try Chicago now compared to the 90’s. It was very nice on Rush Steet, now not so much.

      Dennis L.

      • Mirror on the wall says:

        Exactly, it is one thing to knock off a few who asked for it, but we do not want the vulgar plebs lowering the tone of the place.

    • Tim Groves says:

      According to Robert Young’s “literal” translation, published in 1898:

      Exodus 20:1-17

      And God speaketh all these words, saying, I [am] Jehovah thy God, who hath brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of a house of servants.

      1. Thou hast no other Gods before Me.

      2. Thou dost not make to thyself a graven image, or any likeness which [is] in the heavens above, or which [is] in the earth beneath, or which [is] in the waters under the earth. Thou dost not bow thyself to them, nor serve them: for I, Jehovah thy God, [am] a zealous God, charging iniquity of fathers on sons, on the third [generation], and on the fourth, of those hating Me, and doing kindness to thousands, of those loving Me and keeping My commands.

      3. Thou dost not take up the name of Jehovah thy God for a vain thing, for Jehovah acquitteth not him who taketh up His name for a vain thing.

      4. Remember the Sabbath-day to sanctify it; six days thou dost labour, and hast done all thy work, and the seventh day [is] a Sabbath to Jehovah thy God; thou dost not do any work, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, thy man-servant, and thy handmaid, and thy cattle, and thy sojourner who is within thy gates, — for six days hath Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that [is] in them, and resteth in the seventh day; therefore hath Jehovah blessed the Sabbath-day, and doth sanctify it.

      5. Honour thy father and thy mother, so that thy days are prolonged on the ground which Jehovah thy God is giving to thee.

      6. Thou dost not murder.

      7. Thou dost not commit adultery.

      8. Thou dost not steal.

      9. Thou dost not answer against thy neighbour a false testimony.

      10. Thou dost not desire the house of thy neighbour, thou dost not desire the wife of thy neighbour, or his man-servant, or his handmaid, or his ox, or his ass, or anything which [is] thy neighbour’s.

      There is a note attached to the webpage commenting on this translation:

      A strictly literal rendering may not be as pleasant to the ear as one where the apparent sense is chiefly aimed at, yet truth is what ought to be sought. The translations available at the time that this one was published had frequent departures from the original. The meaning of what the writers did write was being replaced by what they ought to have written.

      This translation was not meant to compete with the Common Version, but to be used as an auxiliary to it. The Greek text used is the Received Text. A literal text was considered to be indispensable. The King James translators were unacquainted with two peculiarities of the Hebrew use of tense of verbs. Although there are several pages dealing with Hebrew verbs, there is no reference concerning what text was used in translating the Old Testament.

      – – –

      Depending how one interprets the meaning of “dost not”, it could be a commandment or a statement of fact. ‘Dost’ is an old-fashioned second person singular form of the verb ‘do’, so it is closer to ‘do not’ or ‘will not’ than to ‘must not’

      My Dad used to tell his kids, “Don’t drink, don’t smoke, and don’t gamble; then you’ll always have money in your pocket.” Was that a commandment or order, or was it a piece of helpful advice for living well? I think it Dad’s case it was the latter.

      Mum might have said, “You you will not swear in this house!” or “You shall go to bed without any supper.” Or a judge may say, “You shall be taken from this court to a prison, and you shall be hanged by the neck until you are dead, and you shall be buried within the grounds of the prison in which you were last confined.” These things are examples of orders or commands. Syntactically they are stated as if it they are facts but they are instructions that must be carried out.

      The wills and shalls of mums and judges are orders, which must be obeyed without question, but the dos and don’ts of dads are friendly advice, which you can take or leave.

      As God is a dad, I suspect He is merely telling us that if we do the things he tells us we dost not do, then we should expect blowback or karma or Nemesis of some kind.

      • Dennis L. says:

        Laughing quietly. As mom always said, “Wait until your father comes home.”

        Dennis L.

      • i used to covet my neighbour’s ass

      • Mirror on the wall says:

        “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, or his male slave, or his female slave, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s.”

        One has to try to see through the mists of time to see what is going on there. Some scholars argue that they are derivative of Hittite and Mesopotamian laws.

        We are talking about Iron Age societies, which were based on conquest, mass slavery, farming and some other technologies, and polygamy for the well off.

        Clearly the ’10 statements’ or whatever are not aimed at the regulation of inter-state relations. They seem to order the doings of the ‘little’ people.

        In other words, ‘be a good slave, know your place, do not aspire for more, and do not be a nuisance.’ That seems to be a reasonable interpretation.

        Certainly, the broader context is a social group to which ‘divine sanction’ is explicitly given to act in the Iron Age way of conquest and slavery.

        And that is fair enough, and what we would reasonably expect from such a society in its time. Likely the statements would not have made much sense to hunter-gatherers.

      • Kowalainen says:

        A very verbose way of articulating the golden rule.

  45. Fast Eddy says:

    Main headline https://www.reuters.com/world/china-has-reasons-keep-cool-after-us-downs-suspected-spy-balloon-2023-02-05/

    It was a balloon … it moves very slowly .. why would they not just force it to the ground and determine what it is

    this just demonstrates that the MORE-ONS will believe anything

    • Dennis L. says:


      It falls on someone’s head, lose, it is not shot down, lose. It is shot down over the ocean, it is down, people still complain.

      It will be interesting to see what happens with the overall population in the next few years. Excess deaths appear to be attracting attention in Europe now that they have run out of bullets to send to the Ukraine.

      Dennis L.

    • Student says:

      The title of the book has been just changed in:

      ”Almost around the world in 79 days”

      ‘Hurray! We have arrived to Americaaaaaaaa…. PAF’


  46. Fast Eddy says:

    Early last month, Old Dominion sophomore guard Imo Essien collapsed on the court during a game against Georgia Southern. Just days before, another Las Vegas resident – Jordan Tyler Brister – suffered apparent cardiac arrest after PE class at Amplus Academy.

    In December, Jake Hescock, who played college football at both UCF and Wisconsin, died suddenly after suffering cardiac arrest while jogging. The former tight end was only 25 years old.


    There are dozens per day falling … too many to document

    • Rodster says:

      Thanks for some good news news this Sunday. That’s a few less gullible moreons walking on this planet.

    • Fred says:

      Novax won the Australian Open and his supporters and Dad flew the Russian flag and upset the wokies. That’s enough for me.

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