Why financial approaches won’t fix the world’s economic problems this time

Time and time again, financial approaches have worked to fix economic problems. Raising interest rates has acted to slow the economy and lowering them has acted to speed up the economy. Governments overspending their incomes also acts to push the economy ahead; doing the reverse seems to slow economies down.

What could possibly go wrong? The issue is a physics problem. The economy doesn’t run simply on money and debt. It operates on resources of many kinds, including energy-related resources. As the population grows, the need for energy-related resources grows. The bottleneck that occurs is something that is hard to see in advance; it is an affordability bottleneck.

For a very long time, financial manipulations have been able to adjust affordability in a way that is optimal for most players. At some point, resources, especially energy resources, get stretched too thin, relative to the rising population and all the commitments that have been made, such as pension commitments. As a result, there is no way for the quantity of goods and services produced to grow sufficiently to match the promises that the financial system has made. This is the real bottleneck that the world economy reaches.

I believe that we are closely approaching this bottleneck today. I recently gave a talk to a group of European officials at the 2nd Luxembourg Strategy Conference, discussing the issue from the European point of view. Europeans seem to be especially vulnerable because Europe, with its early entry into the Industrial Revolution, substantially depleted its fossil fuel resources many years ago. The topic I was asked to discuss was, “Energy: The interconnection of energy limits and the economy and what this means for the future.”

In this post, I write about this presentation.

Slide 3

The major issue is that money, by itself, cannot operate the economy, because we cannot eat money. Any model of the economy must include energy and other resources. In a finite world, these resources tend to deplete. Also, human population tends to grow. At some point, not enough goods and services are produced for the growing population.

I believe that the major reason we have not been told about how the economy really works is because it would simply be too disturbing to understand the real situation. If today’s economy is dependent on finite fossil fuel supplies, it becomes clear that, at some point, these will run short. Then the world economy is likely to face a very difficult time.

A secondary reason for the confusion about how the economy operates is too much specialization by researchers studying the issue. Physicists (who are concerned about energy) don’t study economics; politicians and economists don’t study physics. As a result, neither group has a very broad understanding of the situation.

I am an actuary. I come from a different perspective: Will physical resources be adequate to meet financial promises being made? I have had the privilege of learning a little from both economic and physics sides of the discussion. I have also learned about the issue from a historical perspective.

Slide 4
Slide 5

World energy consumption has been growing very rapidly at the same time that the world economy has been growing. This makes it hard to tell whether the growing energy supply enabled the economic growth, or whether the higher demand created by the growing economy encouraged the world economy to use more resources, including energy resources.

Physics says that it is energy resources that enable economic growth.

Slide 6

The R-squared of GDP as a function of energy is .98, relative to the equation shown.

Slide 7

Physicists talk about the “dissipation” of energy. In this process, the ability of an energy product to do “useful work” is depleted. For example, food is an energy product. When food is digested, its ability to do useful work (provide energy for our body) is used up. Cooking food, whether using a campfire or electricity or by burning natural gas, is another way of dissipating energy.

Humans are clearly part of the economy. Every type of work that is done depends upon energy dissipation. If energy supplies deplete, the form of the economy must change to match.

Slide 8

There are a huge number of systems that seem to grow by themselves using a process called self-organization. I have listed a few of these on Slide 8. Some of these things are alive; most are not. They are all called “dissipative structures.”

The key input that allows these systems to stay in a “non-dead” state is dissipation of energy of the appropriate type. For example, we know that humans need about 2,000 calories a day to continue to function properly. The mix of food must be approximately correct, too. Humans probably could not live on a diet of lettuce alone, for example.

Economies have their own need for energy supplies of the proper kind, or they don’t function properly. For example, today’s agricultural equipment, as well as today’s long-distance trucks, operate on diesel fuel. Without enough diesel fuel, it becomes impossible to plant and harvest crops and bring them to market. A transition to an all-electric system would take many, many years, if it could be done at all.

Slide 9

I think of an economy as being like a child’s building toy. Gradually, new participants are added, both in the form of new citizens and new businesses. Businesses are formed in response to expected changes in the markets. Governments gradually add new laws and new taxes. Supply and demand seem to set market prices. When the system seems to be operating poorly, regulators step in, typically adjusting interest rates and the availability of debt.

One key to keeping the economy working well is the fact that those who are “consumers” closely overlap those who are “employees.” The consumers (= employees) need to be paid well enough, or they cannot purchase the goods and services made by the economy.

A less obvious key to keeping the economy working well is that the whole system needs to be growing. This is necessary so that there are enough goods and services available for the growing population. A growing economy is also needed so that debt can be repaid with interest, and so that pension obligations can be paid as promised.

Slide 10

World population has been growing year after year, but arable land stays close to constant. To provide enough food for this rising population, more intensive agriculture is required, often including irrigation, fertilizers, herbicides and pesticides.

Furthermore, an increasing amount of fresh water is needed, leading to a need for deeper wells and, in some places, desalination to supplement other water sources. All these additional efforts add energy usage, as well as costs.

In addition, mineral ores and energy supplies of all kinds tend to become depleted because the best resources are accessed first. This leaves the more expensive-to-extract resources for later.

Slide 11

The issues in Slide 11 are a continuation of the issues described on Slide 10. The result is that the cost of energy production eventually rises so much that its higher costs spill over into the cost of all other goods and services. Workers find that their paychecks are not high enough to cover the items they usually purchased in the past. Some poor people cannot even afford food and fresh water.

Slide 12
Slide 13

Increasing debt is helpful as an economy grows. A farmer can borrow money for seed to grow a crop, and he can repay the debt, once the crop has grown. Or an entrepreneur can finance a factory using debt.

On the consumer side, debt at a sufficiently low interest rate can be used to make the purchase of a home or vehicle affordable.

Central banks and others involved in the financial world figured out many years ago that if they manipulate interest rates and the availability of credit, they are generally able to get the economy to grow as fast as they would like.

Slide 14

It is hard for most people to imagine how much interest rates have varied over the last century. Back during the Great Depression of the 1930s and the early 1940s, interest rates were very close to zero. As large amounts of inexpensive energy were added to the economy in the post-World War II period, the world economy raced ahead. It was possible to hold back growth by raising interest rates.

Oil supply was constrained in the 1970s, but demand and prices kept rising. US Federal Reserve Chairman Paul Volker is known for raising interest rates to unheard of heights (over 15%) with a peak in 1981 to end inflation brought on by high oil prices. This high inflation rate brought on a huge recession from which the economy eventually recovered, as the higher prices brought more oil supply online (Alaska, North Sea, and Mexico), and as substitution was made for some oil use. For example, home heating was moved away from burning oil; electricity-production was mostly moved from oil to nuclear, coal and natural gas.

Another thing that has helped the economy since 1981 has been the ability to stimulate demand by lowering interest rates, making monthly payments more affordable. In 2008, the US added Quantitative Easing as a way of further holding interest rates down. A huge debt bubble has thus been built up since 1981, as the world economy has increasingly been operated with an increasing amount of debt at ever-lower interest rates. (See 3-month and 10 year interest rates shown on Slide 14.) This cheap debt has allowed rapidly rising asset prices.

Slide 15

The world economy starts hitting major obstacles when energy supply stops growing faster than population because the supply of finished goods and services (such as new automobile, new homes, paved roads, and airplane trips for passengers) produced stops growing as rapidly as population. These obstacles take the form of affordability obstacles. The physics of the situation somehow causes the wages and wealth to be increasingly concentrated among the top 10% or 1%. Lower-paid individuals are increasingly left out. While goods are still produced, ever-fewer workers can afford more than basic necessities. Such a situation makes for unhappy workers.

World energy consumption per capita hit a peak in 2018 and began to slide in 2019, with an even bigger drop in 2020. With less energy consumption, world automobile sales began to slide in 2019 and fell even lower in 2020. Protests, often indirectly related to inadequate wages or benefits, became an increasing problem in 2019. The year 2020 is known for Covid-19 related shutdowns and flight cancellations, but the indirect effect was to reduce energy consumption by less travel and by broken supply lines leading to unavailable goods. Prices of fossil fuels dropped far too low for producers.

Governments tried to get their own economies growing by various techniques, including spending more than the tax revenue they took in, leading to a need for more government debt, and by Quantitative Easing, acting to hold down interest rates. The result was a big increase in the money supply in many countries. This increased money supply was often distributed to individual citizens as subsidies of various kinds.

The higher demand caused by this additional money tended to cause inflation. It tended to raise fossil fuel prices because the inexpensive-to-extract fuels have mostly been extracted. In the days of Paul Volker, more energy supply at a little higher price was available within a few years. This seems extremely unlikely today because of diminishing returns. The problem is that there is little new oil supply available unless prices can stay above at least $120 per barrel on a consistent basis, and prices this high, or higher, do not seem to be available.

Oil prices are not rising this high, even with all of the stimulus funds because of the physics-based wage disparity problem mentioned previously. Also, those with political power try to keep fuel prices down so that the standards of living of citizens will not fall. Because of these low oil prices, OPEC+ continues to make cuts in production. The existence of chronically low prices for fossil fuels is likely the reason why Russia behaves in as belligerent a manner as it does today.

Today, with rising interest rates and Quantitative Tightening instead of Quantitative Easing, a major concern is that the debt bubble that has grown since in 1981 will start to collapse. With falling debt levels, prices of assets, such as homes, farms, and shares of stock, can be expected to fall. Many borrowers will be unable to repay their loans.

If this combination of events occurs, deflation is a likely outcome because banks and pension funds are likely to fail. If, somehow, local governments are able to bail out banks and pension funds, then there is a substantial likelihood of local hyperinflation. In such a case, people will have huge quantities of money, but practically nothing available to buy. In either case, the world economy will shrink because of inadequate energy supply.

Slide 16
Slide 17

Most people have a “normalcy bias.” They assume that if economic growth has continued for a long time in the past, it necessarily will occur in the future. Yet, we all know that all dissipative structures somehow come to an end. Humans can come to an end in many ways: They can get hit by a car; they can catch an illness and succumb to it; they can die of old age; they can starve to death.

History tells us that economies nearly always collapse, usually over a period of years. Sometimes, population rises so high that the food production margin becomes tight; it becomes difficult to set aside enough food if the cycle of weather should turn for the worse. Thus, population drops when crops fail.

In the years leading up to collapse, it is common that the wages of ordinary citizens fall too low for them to be able to afford an adequate diet. In such a situation, epidemics can spread easily and kill many citizens. With so much poverty, it becomes impossible for governments to collect enough taxes to maintain services they have promised. Sometimes, nations lose at war because they cannot afford a suitable army. Very often, governmental debt becomes non-repayable.

The world economy today seems to be approaching some of the same bottlenecks that more local economies hit in the past.

Slide 18

The basic problem is that with inadequate energy supplies, the total quantity of goods and services provided by the economy must shrink. Thus, on average, people must become poorer. Most individual citizens, as well as most governments, will not be happy about this situation.

The situation becomes very much like the game of musical chairs. In this game, one chair at a time is removed. The players walk around the chairs while music plays. When the music stops, all participants grab for a chair. Someone gets left out. In the case of energy supplies, the stronger countries will try to push aside the weaker competitors.

Slide 19

Countries that understand the importance of adequate energy supplies recognize that Europe is relatively weak because of its dependence on imported fuel. However, Europe seems to be oblivious to its poor position, attempting to dictate to others how important it is to prevent climate change by eliminating fossil fuels. With this view, it can easily keep its high opinion of itself.

If we think about the musical chairs’ situation and not enough energy supplies to go around, everyone in the world (except Europe) would be better off if Europe were to be forced out of its high imports of fossil fuels. Russia could perhaps obtain higher energy export prices in Asia and the Far East. The whole situation becomes very strange. Europe tells itself it is cutting off imports to punish Russia. But, if Europe’s imports can remain very low, everyone else, from the US, to Russia, to China, to Japan would benefit.

Slide 20

The benefits of wind and solar energy are glorified in Europe, with people being led to believe that it would be easy to transition from fossil fuels, and perhaps leave nuclear, as well. The problem is that wind, solar, and even hydroelectric energy supply are very undependable. They cannot ever be ramped up to provide year-round heat. They are poorly adapted for agricultural use (except for sunshine helping crops grow).

Few people realize that the benefits that wind and solar provide are tiny. They cannot be depended on, so companies providing electricity need to maintain duplicate generating capacity. Wind and solar require far more transmission than fossil-fuel-generated electricity because the best sources are often far from population centers. When all costs are included (without subsidy), wind and solar electricity tend to be more expensive than fossil-fuel generated electricity. They are especially difficult to rely on in winter. Therefore, many people in Europe are concerned about possibly “freezing in the dark,” as soon as this winter.

There is no possibility of ever transitioning to a system that operates only on intermittent electricity with the population that Europe has today, or that the world has today. Wind turbines and solar panels are built and maintained using fossil fuel energy. Transmission lines cannot be maintained using intermittent electricity alone.

Slide 21
Slide 22

Basically, Europe must use very much less fossil fuel energy, for the long term. Citizens cannot assume that the war with Ukraine will soon be over, and everything will be back to the way it was several years ago. It is much more likely that the freeze-in-the-dark problem will be present every winter, from now on. In fact, European citizens might actually be happier if the climate would warm up a bit.

With this as background, there is a need to figure out how to use less energy without hurting lifestyles too badly. To some extent, changes from the Covid-19 shutdowns can be used, since these indirectly were ways of saving energy. Furthermore, if families can move in together, fewer buildings in total will need to be heated. Cooking can perhaps be done for larger groups at a time, saving on fuel.

If families can home-school their children, this saves both the energy for transportation to school and the energy for heating the school. If families can keep younger children at home, instead of sending them to daycare, this saves energy, as well.

A major issue that I do not point out directly in this presentation is the high energy cost of supporting the elderly in the lifestyles to which they have become accustomed. One issue is the huge amount and cost of healthcare. Another is the cost of separate residences. These costs can be reduced if the elderly can be persuaded to move in with family members, as was done in the past. Pension programs worldwide are running into financial difficulty now, with interest rates rising. Countries with large elderly populations are likely to be especially affected.

Slide 23

Besides conserving energy, the other thing people in Europe can do is attempt to understand the dynamics of our current situation. We are in a different world now, with not enough energy of the right kinds to go around.

The dynamics in a world of energy shortages are like those of the musical chairs’ game. We can expect more fighting. We cannot expect that countries that have been on our side in the past will necessarily be on our side in the future. It is more like being in an undeclared war with many participants.

Under ideal circumstances, Europe would be on good terms with energy exporters, even Russia. I suppose at this late date, nothing can be done.

A major issue is that if Europe attempts to hold down fossil fuel prices, the indirect result will be to reduce supply. Oil, natural gas and coal producers will all reduce supply before they will accept a price that they consider too low. Given the dependence of the world economy on energy supplies, especially fossil fuel energy supplies, this will make the situation worse, rather than better.

Wind and solar are not replacements for fossil fuels. They are made with fossil fuels. We don’t have the ability to store up solar energy from summer to winter. Wind is also too undependable, and battery capacity too low, to compensate for need for storage from season to season. Thus, without a growing supply of fossil fuels, it is impossible for today’s economy to continue in its current form.

About Gail Tverberg

My name is Gail Tverberg. I am an actuary interested in finite world issues - oil depletion, natural gas depletion, water shortages, and climate change. Oil limits look very different from what most expect, with high prices leading to recession, and low prices leading to financial problems for oil producers and for oil exporting countries. We are really dealing with a physics problem that affects many parts of the economy at once, including wages and the financial system. I try to look at the overall problem.
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3,503 Responses to Why financial approaches won’t fix the world’s economic problems this time

  1. Herbie Ficklestein. says:

    Those Vikings…
    In a ‘Once-in-a-Lifetime’ Discovery, Swedish Archaeologists Have Unearthed a Cache of Viking Silver That Still Looks Brand New
    Discovered outside of Stockholm, the hoard includes a Norman coin whose only previous documentation was in an 18th-century book.
    Richard Whiddington 4 hours ago
    A hoard of Viking silver, described as a once-in-a-lifetime discovery by onsite archeologists, has been unearthed in Täby, a municipality north of Stockholm.
    As the Archaeologists, a team of specialists under contract from Sweden’s National Historical Museums, dug beneath the decayed wooden floor of a building in a Viking Age settlement, they discovered a small ceramic pot. Inside lay eight neck rings, two arm rings, a finger ring, a pair of pearls, and 12 coin pendants deposited in a linen pouch.
    The neck rings provoked particular excitement. Forged in the torque-style, a symbol of wealth and status for Viking men and women, the nearly 1,000-year-old rings were “extraordinarily well-preserved despite having been made and deposited almost a thousand years ago,” said Maria Lingström, the archeologist who removed them from the ground. “They looked almost completely new.”
    The find is part of a larger excavation taking place at a settlement that endured from 400 C.E. through the Viking Age (800–1050 C.E.) and into the Middle Ages. So far, the archaeologists have identified more than 20 houses and buildings, and dug up arrows, quern stones (used to grind down a range of materials), and amulet rings. This most recent discovery, however, is the team’s most eye-catching and potentially illuminating.
    The hoard of coins evidences the international nature of commerce in Viking Age Scandinavia, and includes silver from England, Bohemia, Bavaria, as well as dirhams, a type of Arabic coinage. The collection makes up what the Archaeologists termed “a perfect example of [the era’s] far-reaching connections and blossoming trade.”
    The cache also includes a 10th-century coin minted in Normandy, an area in northern France to which Vikings migrated in the early ninth-century, which had only ever previously been documented in an 18th-century book of drawings.
    Chief among the questions posed by the haul is why inhabitants would bury their most valuable possessions. “One common interpretation is that people buried their treasures in tumultuous times,” said one of the site’s project managers, John Hamilton. “We have yet to see if that was the case here.”

    Like the sentence…
    The hoard of coins evidences the international nature of commerce in Viking Age Scandinavia, and includes silver from England, Bohemia, Bavaria, as well as dirhams, a type of Arabic coinage.

    Sure it does…evidence of the looting going on the Viking Age, more like it!
    When I was a child Hagar was one comic strip read in the Sunday funnies…

    • Perhaps with much more limited international trade, gold or silver coins could again be used to enable transactions.

      Right now, letters of credit are used. If a lot of companies start defaulting on their debt, and if banks start failing, letters of credit may not be acceptable. Part of the problem in the 2008 crisis was that companies that had poor credit standing could not get letters of credit at any reasonable price. These small companies were often parts of integrated supply lines. When one part of the supply chain had to drop out, it became difficult to make finished products.

    • Xabier says:

      Ha!’The international nature of commerce.’ So funny. Partly, no doubt, but also stolen or protection money: ‘Nice kingdom you have here, it would be a shame if anything were to happen to it….’

      Odin asked how things were in the world of men? His spy replied:

      ‘An axe time. A sword time. A time of shattered shields.’

    • Withnail says:

      8 neck rings and 12 coins? Pretty pitiful hoard compared to those from Roman Britain. Shows how poor the Vikings were.

  2. Herbie Ficklestein. says:

    Gen Z’s not lazy — they’re just refusing to put up with the toxic work culture that boomers created
    Kim Kelly Nov 3, 2022, 6:01 AM
    Workers born between 1997 and 2012 have come of age at a time when college degrees no longer promise job stability and economic anxiety is high.

    More than any other generation, these new entrants to the workforce prioritize fair treatment on the job and refuse to bend to exploitative or outdated corporate norms. And now, Gen Z is turning to organizing as a way to stand up to corporate bosses. Recent union drives at varying workplaces such as Starbucks, Amazon, Home Depot, Minor League Baseball, and even North Hollywood’s Star Garden Topless Dive Bar have all involved Gen Z workers — and some have been led by Gen Z outright.
    they’re simply choosing to reject some of the practices that previous generations were forced to accept. Surveys have found that Gen Zers are less likely than their elders to go along with long hours, overbearing bosses, or a lack of boundaries between the personal and the professional. Instead, this new wave of workers is actively pushing back on the behaviors that make the workplace a toxic environment.

    “When I started at Starbucks, I never understood why I had to deal with the treatment I was given,” Laila Dalton, a 20-year-old college student who was fired from Starbucks earlier this year after organizing a union in her store, told me. “I think my generation is finally starting to realize that it doesn’t matter if you’re in the food industry, retail, construction, healthcare, etc., we all deserve to have healthier working conditions.”

    Yep. We have is really bad nowadays

    • Dennis L. says:

      Okay, I get part of it, SS and Medicare taxes in the US, working for the old. At one point I calculated the increase in cost for SS compared to the increase in amount spent for oil over the past forty or so years. SS was more expensive.

      Notice in supermarkets and Sam’s, self checkout works well without these individuals. Sam’s has floor sweepers moving without a GenZ pushing a broom. The older workers are by in large better informed and move more quickly. Many in GenZ assume they are trained for a leadership position, they can “march” for change and make the world utopia.They have yet to read Thomas More. In my words, “Next.”

      For truly talented, high skilled people, salary is not a problem.

      Problem for kids is a poor education, too much touchy feely, not enough math, etc. Those subjects are hard and mastering them takes 10,000 hours per Andrej Karpathy, see Lex Fridman. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdiD-9MMpb0&t=399s

      At the boundaries, the world is moving very quickly, there will be minerals, etc., Musk will return them from space. Betting against him has to date not been a good one.

      Andrej points out how quickly we have advanced in the last hundred years; it is impossible to see where we will be with GAI in the near future. We don’t know the future anymore than someone from the 19th century foresaw the 21st.

      The world evolves, there is a fabric and we are part of it. As long as we choose to be a sentient part of this world, there does not seem to be an alternative. Or as Buddy Holly said, “Rave on.”

      Dennis L.

      • >For truly talented, high skilled people, salary is not a problem.

        In your days, maybe. Not now.

        Pay does matter in regions with sky high rents. Musk is not going to pay the rents of the whiz-kids he supposedly assembled. He is well known to be stingy, and while you might enjoy working at his basement (no temperature control), the younger kids won’t.

        You are the perfect example of the horse in “Animal Farm”, who work himself to death thinking things will become better, and end up being a glue. I am sure you would be very happy to be a part of the spaceship Musk is supposed to build, but today’s generation, having seen thru the lies, won’t take it.

    • Hubbs says:

      While I worked hard, saved and sacrificed while going to college and professional school (Even the nerdy anatomy graduate school Chairman surprise me in the lab one morning where I had been sleeping the whole year, eating at the hospitals with no car, and having to walk everywhere. “Ahem. Mr. Hubbs,your address says you live at 202 South Second Street. I heard a rumor that you were sleeping here in the lab, and I said to myself, no, that ridculous. That can’t be true, but then I decided that I had better check to see if was true. And it is true! Mr Hubbs, you can’t sleep in the lab!” LOL.

      But back then, I think we had more drive because we knew our efforts would be rewarded if we stuck it out. You are driven more if you perceive that your “social contract” will be honored. But today, kids sense that even if they bust their asses, they are likely to get screwed over anyway. So it can be a fine line between Zrs being perceived as being “lazy” versus simply not being motivated because they see the writing on the wall.

      And then I hear from us old guys saying how we pulled ourselves up by our bootstraps and worked to pay our way through college and paid off our debts, and the Zers should be expected to do the same. I call these boomers the “Bootstrappers” as they chastize today’s youth for being lazy, irresponsible, and entitlement minded. Many are,but I think many have taken the bait with these tuition loans when had not the politicians been trying to get votes, most oif these kids would have simply gone to work after highschool.

      Fact is, college costs were nothing back then, and jobs paid well to the point that one could easily pay off their loans. Today, a kid who graduates with $100,000 in debt from undergraduate school is screwed unless in a highly technical skill set like a surgeon (but not a primary care physician, Family Practice doctor, pediatrician, etc.) I know two doctors in my apartment complex with families who had lived there for several years (internal medicine) who graduated with $400,000 in debt and realized that with more than 50% of the doctors now being being employed by these hospital corporations, the taxes, and other higher costs of living, they would be mired in debt for decades. I explained to my daughter her best defense against exploitation by corporate hospitals is to be mobile and be able to back up and leave. They will offer big bonuses to attract new help, and will even pay higher wages than those who have been in the trenches for years.

      The debt trap. Same with my former partner, an orthopedic surgeon who at age 63 was still paying off his school loans, even after getting relief for much of his loans thanks to the military- while hypocritically saying that his three kids were “captains of their own ships” and they would get no help from him.

      • Xabier says:

        Good posts from both Dennis and Hubbs. You were like the medieval apprentice sleeping under the shop counter, Hubbs!

        Even motivated and highly qualified graduates are disheartened by the very high rentals here, and the prospect of never having even a little house and garden to raise a family, and those who do manage to buy are being helped by parents: until it all went crazy they could have done it on their own after some years of economy and saving hard.

        Also these same graduates know that the choice for educating any children would be between a private school at simply ridiculous fees – again, families tend to help – or a disintegrating state school which no responsible parent would wish to see their child attend.

        Discouraging even for those with drive.

      • holleymangmailcom says:

        Young adults are still buying into the fallacy that everyone has to go to college or university and accumulate 20 to 30 thousand in debt per year. I work with trades people, mechanic, welders, electricians, NDT inspectors and HVAC technicians. We have been looking for and unable to fill trades position, even to the point of bringing on first year apprentices and PAY THEM to learn the trade. Basically $150 K per year jobs go unfilled due to the younger generation’s allergy to real hands on work and the stigma of a trade as a profession.
        Hope they like making lattes.

        • Replenish says:

          It’s hard to find good help around here however I have had some success learning to trust the process and cultivate a shred of faith in humanity.

          My 1st full-time helper was in rehab (28 years old) when I found him. He sat down next to me during a meeting and I picked him up everyday at the center until one of our friends gave him an SUV. I trained him on the job for 2+ years while he regained sobriety, dealt with legal issues and repaired relationships. I gave him regular raises up to $20/hour before we went our separate ways when he quarantined with his pregnant girlfriend in the early weeks of the pandemic. Now he works for one of our General Contractor clients making $29/hour learning new skills and leveraging those I shared with him. He’s a new father, bought a vehicle and is fixing up a half-double row house in the City for his girlfriend.

          My last helper was a 20-something National Guardsmen and new college graduate who lost her internship during the pandemic. She was good at taking direction, on-time everyday and appreciative of the $15/hour labor-rate I gave her while she found work in her field. She got deployed to the US Capital after J6 and I learned a great deal about young people’s perspectives on energy, social justice and military service. She made sense of my targeting experiences explaining that the treatment reminded her of stories she heard about military intelligence testing informants. I chose to work alone now and take more time between jobs to enjoy life. Training someone is like working double over time and I need a break, lol.

          • Replenish says:

            “t is believed that this network structure is an emergent property and therefore the result of self-organisation. It depends on the rules of interaction within the system.

            So, it seems there is a “They” imposing its control over the world but it is quite possible that this is an emergent phenomenon. This means that “They” don’t create the structure in a top-down way but instead they emerge, by the laws of nature, through a bottom-up system.”


        • Fast Eddy says:

          They are all busy trying to become the next major influencer on tiktok…

          The reality is .. it would be easier to get drafted into the NBA than it is to make big money as an influencer hahaha

          But they are MORE-ONS so they don’t realize that

  3. http://charleshughsmith.blogspot.com/2022/11/the-era-of-all-powerful-central-banks.html

    The Era of All-Powerful Central Banks Is Over

    Central bank gaming of Finance is the source of instability.

    The era of all-powerful central banks is over for a simple reason: they failed: they failed their citizens, their nations, and they failed the world. Their policies have pushed wealth and income inequality to extremes that have destabilized the planet’s social, political, economic and environmental spheres.

    I would agree with Charles Hugh Smith in with respect to “The Era of All-Powerful Central Banks Is Over,” but I am not sure that my reasoning is the same. The self-organizing system has permitted a huge build-up of debt and derivatives that must necessarily collapse. It has also pushed a vastly disproportionate share of the wealth to the top.

    Somehow, this system must fail, and the new system cannot allow such an absurd amount of debt. Perhaps a farmer can get a little debt from a local bank to pay for seed and fertilizer, to hold him over from the time he plants until the time he harvests. But the absurd stacking of debt upon debt and promises upon promises, has to stop.

    The current system only works when the system is growing, thanks to a rising supply of energy per capita. To some extent, this rising supply of energy per capita can be made to take place because of a growing supply of debt at ever-lower interest rates. Once interest rates hit 0% and below, and the likelihood of ramping up of energy supplies per capita hit zero, the system stopped working.

    There is no way the large international companies can keep on producing goods and services at anywhere close to current rates, so stock prices are far too high. There is no way that debt can be repaid with interest. The system somehow has to fail, including the central banks, so CHS is right in this regard.

    • Student says:

      Thank you for this clarification.
      I’ve recently read an article by Byoblu website saying that Japan Central Bank is making the opposite about interests in comparison to what EU bank (and also FED or others) are doing.
      I have some doubts that Japan will be able to go on in another direction for long, but I kindly ask your opinion about what is happening with Japan, because it is not clear to me.
      Many thanks!


      • Japan has an amazing amount of government debt, far more than other country in the world. It started quantitative easing before anyone else. The government cannot afford higher interest rates because of the huge amount of debt it has.

        Japan also has a severe shortage of energy resources. It needs to be an energy importer, whatever it does. Nuclear was a temporary workaround.

        Japan is very much in danger of collapse, just as Europe is. I understand that Japan is making efforts to get along with Russia, especially with respect to oil from Sakhalin. Perhaps it can figure out an alliance it can make with some parts of Asia to keep going for a while longer. It cannot raise interest rates, however.

        • Student says:

          Thank you.
          But being similar situations. so maybe we could say that also Europe could probably try the same?

          • I think that Europe has antagonized Russia too much. It doesn’t have a lot to sell. Except for Germany, it doesn’t have the manufacturing capability of Japan. At most, parts of Europe could bind with stronger areas elsewhere.

  4. https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/The-Next-OPEC-Like-Cartel-Could-Be-In-Battery-Metals.html

    The Next OPEC-Like Cartel Could Be In Battery Metals

    The article doesn’t give a good case for an OPEC-like cartel, in my opinion. It does, however, lay out some of the environmental impacts of trying to upgrade enough nickel production to the quality needed for batteries. (Russia is currently a major supplier of such nickel.)

    Indonesia and its policies will be pivotal for the quality and quantity challenges in nickel supply, according to the IEA.

    Most of the nickel production growth in the coming years is set to come from the regions with vast amounts of laterite resources, such as Indonesia and the Philippines, according to the IEA. These resources need more energy and emission-intensive processed to produce battery-grade nickel. High Pressure Acid Leach (HPAL) is gaining traction as a way to produce Class 1 products from laterite resources, and several such projects are being developed in Indonesia. But such projects have track records of large cost overruns and delays and require additional costs for acid production facilities.

    There are also concerns about the environmental impact of HPAL as it often uses coal or oil-fired boilers for heat, thus emitting up to three times more greenhouse gas emissions than production from sulphide deposits, the IEA says.

    Due to concerns over the environmental impact of the nickel industry in Indonesia, dozens of U.S. and Indonesian environmental organizations sent in July an open letter to Elon Musk and the shareholders of Tesla, urging them to “Terminate Tesla’s planned investment plan in Indonesia’s nickel industry due to potentially devastating impacts on the environment and the lives of Indonesian people.”

  5. I noticed this post on Zerohedge. I haven’t listened to the video, but I am afraid the general message is close to correct.


    “We’re At The End Of A Major Era” – Von Greyerz Warns Of “$2.5 Quadrillion Disaster Waiting To Happen” by Greg Hunter of USA Watchdog

    Egon von Greyerz (EvG) stores gold for clients at the biggest private gold vault in the world buried deep in the Swiss Alps. EvG is a financial and precious metals expert. EvG is a former Swiss banker and an expert in risk. He says the risk in the global markets has never been this high.

    EvG explains, “Credit has increased dramatically through derivatives. All instruments being issued now by banks, pension funds, stock funds, it’s all synthetic. There is no real underlying payments in anything almost…”

    How well today’s system sticks together, and what system can be produced quickly as a substitute are both big questions in my mind.

    • Dennis L says:


      Dennis L.

    • banned says:

      Von Greyerz is part of the King World news crowd. KWN has been banging this drum for at least two decades and selling gold, gold services,miner stocks etcetera. I wonder to what extent they adopt arguments to pursue their business goals. I am not saying they are wrong in their arguments but I do question their motives. To think that somehow gold will retain value if fiat dies is indeed questionable. When fiat dies trading dies. There has to be widespread belief in a unit of exchange to make it work. Even as we see the dollar have less value every day there really is nothing else. If dollar stops working it will be CBDC replacing it. IMO gold remains a discretionary item not a foundation. Gold may well play a role in the BRICS currency if it arises. I see little chance of that currency having any relevance in the west as the economies divorce.

      The western banking institutions and governments that create and spend the central banks money have zero interest in a gold based system and every interest in not having a competitor to whatever fiat is theres to create. When fiat dies its collapse. Perhaps gold will rise out of the ashes to make peoples grandchildren wealthy. I dont think so but perhaps. What I really think is collapse spells the end of wealth as we know it. Whether you like the central banks or not were all along for the flight. If the plane you are on crashes it doesnt really matter why the wings fell off.

      Some people are optimistic seeing a age ahead where there is honest money and no one gene editing. I am skeptical. The west is isolating rather than adopting change. Everything that requires price discovery is being abandoned not embraced. Lie way or the highway. Where exactly this leads us is unknown. People can not imagine no human order but in my humble opinion it is probable. Thats why it is best we take care of our greatest follys like creating nuclear waste now. Maybe thats why the nuclear waste is not placed in a safe depository. To do so admits the possibility of no human order and to admit that is taboo. BAU is a tough cookie. Its taboo to say the dough is soft.

      • I have a hard time believing that gold will buy much of anything, when goods and services in general are in very short supply. The goods will have to go to those who work on producing them, not those with the gold.

        It seems like an awfully lot of people have something that they would like to sell.

      • Fast Eddy says:

        I reckon spent fuel is placed in ponds because it’s the only safe place to keep it…

        They just assumed BAU was permanent.

        Humans are stooopid like that… kinda like how when they started farming and thought that was a great idea

        hahaha now 8B cuz of that

    • Hubbs says:

      Listened to it last night. Nothing much new. The whole facade of debt repayment which implies that the currency is still intact will be like a mirror that is shattered, and suddenly unpayable debt will mean that the currencies therefore are suddenly worthless, as currency and debt are synonomous. My cognitive dissonance of this potential reality is matched only by the seeming impossibility that the table of our polite society, with all its ” law and order,” plentiful supplies, services , and luxuries could ever be tipped upside down into an immediate descent into anarchy. That happens only in other countries/s.

  6. postkey says:

    “Markets Didn’t Oust Truss. The Bank of England Did.
    Analysis by Narayana Kocherlakota | Bloomberg . . .
    The way the Truss government collapsed should concern all who support democracy. The prime minister was seeking to fulfill her campaign promises. She was thwarted not by markets, but by a hole in financial regulation — a hole that the Bank of England proved strangely unwilling to plug.” ?

    • What the article says is,

      The big change came in the price of 30-year UK government bonds, also known as gilts, which experienced a shocking 23% drop. Most of this decline had nothing to do with rational investors revising their beliefs about the UK’s long-run prospects. Rather, it stemmed from financial regulators’ failure to limit leverage in UK pension funds. These funds had bought long-term gilts with borrowed money and entered derivative contracts to the same effect — positions that generated huge collateral demands when prices fell and yields rose. To raise the necessary cash, they had to sell more gilts, creating a doom loop in which declining prices and forced selling compounded one another.

      The Bank of England, as the entity responsible for overseeing the financial system, bears at least part of the blame for this catastrophe. As a result of its regulatory failure, it was forced into an emergency intervention, buying gilts to put a floor on prices.

      The issue is a pension funding problem. The article says

      “She was thwarted not by markets, but by a hole in financial regulation — a hole that the Bank of England proved strangely unwilling to plug.”

      The Bank of England got into this hole years ago, when it allowed pension funds leeway in how they could fund their pension funds. In fact, nothing will really work to enable to pension funds to pay out their amounts as planned, but the approach pension funds chose would blow up the derivatives, even more quickly than other approaches. I don’t think that there is anything that regulators could do at this late date to fix this situation. It was already “baked into the cake.”

      • Fast Eddy says:

        I suspect there are all sorts of gimmicks that were employed to keep the wheel turning and now they are getting smashed on the rocks by the tsunami of higher interest rates.

  7. Jan says:

    Military option on Iran could further deteriorate energy markets:

    “The official said that Tehran’s response to the protests coupled with Iran’s support of Russia’s war in Ukraine fundamentally changed the situation, and therefore, even if Iran came back to the table today and said it wanted a nuclear deal, the U.S. was unlikely to move forward.
    The official added that the administration is already looking at the situation as if there is no nuclear deal and is taking steps to ensure the U.S. has a ready military option.”


  8. postkey says:

    “The real economic context for Britain’s predicament is the global supply shock and, especially, the gathering energy crisis. The financial consequence – which the establishment media probably don’t understand and certainly aren’t reporting on – is that the world is experiencing a slow-motion credit crunch as international banks have stopped loaning dollars. ” ?

    • The US and others are doing Quantitative Tightening, rather than Quantitative Easing, which is perhaps part of the Tim Watkins is talking about. China is also not rushing to provide more debt support.

      Later Tim Watkins says,

      The dollar shortage is worsening, forcing countries around the world to spend their dollar reserves – the international equivalent of you and I using up our savings. Meanwhile, energy and food shortages are going to persist for years to come since there is no cheap and abundant alternative to the Russian oil and gas that European leaders have decided that we can get by without. And even though rising food and energy prices are a supply shock not inflation, central banks will continue to raise interest rates in an attempt to lower them. And it is into this environment that Sunak and Hunt apparently believe that tax increases and austerity cuts are going to have a positive impact.

      For both households and businesses, tax cuts are yet another thing which pulls spending away from the discretionary sectors of the economy. And to be clear here, the discretionary economy dwarfs the essential sectors so that, when it crashes, we are looking at something akin to the Great Depression of the 1930s.

      Of more importance in the short-term though, is the question of whether the government can actually raise the taxes it claims. According to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, in 2021-22 the UK government raised a total of £731.6bn of which, £472.9bn – 57.7 percent – came from the big three – Income Tax, National Insurance and VAT. But with the economy in recession, it is doubtful that these can be increased. Indeed, the paradox is that the more the state attempts to tax incomes, the more the economy slows and the less income there is to tax.

      Fundamentally, economies need to grow. It takes more and more energy, and more and more debt, to make this happen. Cutting off debt when energy is already restrained becomes a huge problem. At the end, he seems to come to the conclusion that emulating Zimbabwe is the only solution. The way Tim puts it is, “Fazi’s suggestion that we print our way out of the current crisis may be the best of a set of bad options for the long-term.”

  9. postkey says:

    “76 International organizations and banks enjoy immunities, privileges, and tax exemptions
    GAVI, Big Pharma, and CERN enjoy similar immunities
    The Bank for International Settlements has sovereign immunity and some of these immunities extend to its members, being 63 central banks and the Federal Reserve System, while other immunities extend to “systemically important institutions”
    Trillions of taxpayer dollars and printed money has moved through these organizations and banks with no transparency or accountability as they continue to build a global enslavement system
    Hundreds, if not thousands, of NGOs and corporations work with and through these organizations and banks, some of whom have agreements, NDAs, and/or immunity by extension” ?

    • Xabier says:

      The new aristocracy, or ‘untouchable’ Party members. Erecting the scaffolding of ‘global governance’, from which they will hang us…..

      The facade of liberal democracy with ‘competing’, but in fact complicit, parties is still a useful facade for them, but for how long?

      Real parties of opposition, true ‘populists’, won’t be allowed to get off the ground, or will simply be subverted.

      And to think, poor old pompous Norm still thinks an evangelical Christian SS-style fascism is the real threat, oh dear…..

      • reante says:

        Global governance doesn’t get a magic exemption from collapse. Nothing does. It will largely be pardoned, though, because the national socialisms will be forward-looking, not seeking retribution beyond a few fall-guys, and intolerant of the socializing of antisemitism, which they can afford to be, because national socialism is structurally anti- semitic culture. Everybody ‘wins.’

    • Hubbs says:

      @ Postkey, It is a trifecta of what boils down to first a wealth extraction by the elites from the middle class, then secondly leaving those people who have depended on the government stranded per Doug Casey:

      Finally the third leg of the stool to be chopped off is that there is no way around the simple physics and logistics of energy and food supply production and population. If you hand everyone a stimulus check to pay for the increased “cost” of NG, it won’t do anyone any good if there is none available in the first place.

    • drb753 says:

      Not clear why Cern should be mentioned at all. It is a tiny entity, totally parasitic, but totally irrelevant to hos the world works.

    • The article starts out this way:

      A band of criminals got together a century ago and decided they were going to own the world, hold all of the power, create and hoard all of the money, and keep everyone on a constant spin cycle to fool them.

      Not only were they going to construct it as they saw fit, but they were going to build the most elaborate enslavement system this world has ever seen – one that gives them full immunity, allows them to operate outside the law entirely, and they were going to do it without anyone realizing it until it was too late.

      These self-imposed “rulers” believe themselves to be untouchable, have created documents stating as much, and are laughing at humanity as people move about their lives unaware of this elaborate scheme.

      This is the story that needs to be shared with the world and with every state legislator who should move immediately to create independence from the Federal Reserve system and Central Banks, and enforce our Constitution and financial management laws to protect sovereignty at the state and local level.

      I think that there is a fair amount of truth to it. What you have copied is bullet points from the top of the article. It seems to be the way Bill Gates has funded his empire, and the way Fauci operates.

      It is part of the big system that seems to operate on its own, outside of the law.

      • The Mercola link seems to give information that is behind a paywall, back on the Carey Lynn site. She seems to understand the problem.

        I think the article is well worth reading.

        • Student says:

          That being the case, I see it very difficult to get out of this terrible situation, if not through a painful process.
          But I think that pain we’ll be experienced by all in any case in the next months/years.
          So maybe it is better to suffer for a good cause.

  10. Slowly at first says:

    The vegan diet requires B12 supplementation, which is the product of industrial activity. Will it be practicable in a post-collapse world?

    • davidinamonthorayearoradecade says:

      after Collapse, the survivors will eat whatever they can get their hands on that is edible.

      there will be no vegans, no woketards, no gender switching, no preferred pronouns, no hair dye, no piercings, no affirmative action, no virtue signaling…

      I left off tattoos, that will continue, just uglier than ever.

      • Rodster says:

        I agree, worrying about one’s nutrition will be the last thing on anyone’s mind in a post collapse world. People will eat whatever is available just to stay alive and those with ample food sources will become easy targets by the food zombies. I chuckle when I read Chris Martenson talking about food resiliency and creating your very own mini farm.

        When the proverbial SHTF, those are the places the food zombies will seek out. If you don’t hand over the food, they will kill you and your family. Being well trained to fight back is nice when you are going against just a few but try that with a hoard of hungry and desperate food gangs. You will need some serious firepower along with a few tactical nukes, just in case.

        I’m also reminded of Hurricane Sandy and once the lights went out and the government aka Gov Chris Christie told those survivors, there was no help coming, rich people were dumpster diving within hours.

        Imagine when that becomes the norm and chaos ensues on a permanent basis?

        • davidinamonthorayearoradecade says:

          yes the 2030s are going to be bad.

          • Herbie Ficklestein. says:

            Bring it on …Come now to GrandDaddy..
            I’ll be in my 70s then, so no worries for ma..
            Have my supplements all stocked it till then
            Easy Peazy

        • drb753 says:

          Studying access is important. You can have your minifarm but the hungry hordes need to walk for days to get there. Well armed neighbors and single point of access all count.

          • Xabier says:

            I agree, some rare survivals will be possible, in theory.

            After all, my ancestors survived in the Pyrenees well enough; but they were savages indeed, terrifyingly violent.

            And perhaps something like the Old Man of the Mountain from Crusader days, drb.

            But in the end the Mongols got him, too. Too prominent, so had to be taken down.

          • Hubbs says:

            Which is one reason I have abandoned the idea of trying to raise a garden with chickens and all that. Very romantic ideation but the cold hard reality is it will get stolen, and it will take much time and energy to defend it.

            The better strategy, especially since I have no friends or family may be to just stock up on food enough to last a year or more and hope maybe to emerge from the carnage, if it passes, relatively unscathed, not for myself, but maybe to be able to help my daughter.

            • Fast Eddy says:

              Agree – it’s a very long shot but at least the mob might steer clear of you if they don’t see any animals and veggies to steal.

              Hide down in a cellar with your crates of canned food – and wait for them to pass on to the next target.

              A farm will be like sitting in the centre of Mogadishu with a box of gold coins for sale… or a hottie walking through a rough neighbourhood naked in Libya.

          • Fast Eddy says:

            Do all your neighbours have food?

            Well armed is useless — defending a farm is impossible – you have to go out and work – they would pick you off while weeding … and what about at night – there are no lights… you gonna post guards around the veg patch hahahaha

            The whole idea is so f789ing ridiculous .. and that’s coming from someone who had Little House on the Prairie Delusion hahaha

            Thankfully I got cured from that and stopped wasting my time and $$$ on futility.

            Prepping is actually the worst thing you can do — see those rich people being beaten to death in Sri Lanka? When there is no money – food will be wealth… they will come for you ..

            And when you try to fight them…they will skin you alive – they will rape your children.

            Do not underestimate an angry mob

            This is like talking to CovIDIOTS — preppers are captured by delusions… they need hope… everyone needs hope… but this is going to get you into a world of pain…

            You will regret it

          • Fast Eddy says:

            Single point of access? On a farm? They’ll drive to where the food is .. and even if you block the roads… they’ll walk to where you are …

            You are in over your head… totally underestimating human nature – and capabilities.

            You will be skinned alive if you resist

        • CTG says:

          Let me give my opinion on hordes.

          1. Sheep will have only 1 tank of gasoline/diesel/petrol. From what they are doing right now, they are not the type who will make sure that the gas tank is always full.

          2. In the event that SHTF like an example of NE USA being out of energy, the whole USA will collapse when they realize that NE USA (NYC included) is out of communication.

          3. There will be chaos on in the city, suburbs and urban areas. Roads may be blocked by cars that were out of gas or accidents. Those who are trapped inside the city is unlike to leave as walking will be a problem and one can be taken out easily by violence.

          4. Note that anyone who is injured cannot walk or function well. The family has to decide to support or abandon that person.

          Technically, if you are in a remote area where it is more than half a tank of petrol away from any urban or suburban area, you should be quite safe. It will be even better if your abode is off the main road and have to go up some steep incline.

          Gas stations will not be functional once electricity is gone. The number of people who have plenty of spare gasoline/petrol is only a small number of people and these people are generally preppers”.

          • Xabier says:

            Might well be true: no wheels, no hordes….

            Actually, pests, disease and extremely bad weather wiping out crops and animals will probably be the main problem for My Little Garden/Farm survivalists.

            Medieval chronicles show repeated rural disasters of that kind, sending peasants to the towns begging for food.

            • cassandraclub says:

              But this time there won’t be any towns 🙁

            • Fast Eddy says:

              Again this is why nobody takes the FE Challenge… their minds will not allow it …

              they would quickly understand how reliant they are on the hardware store… and we are not even getting into what happens when crops fail…

              It’s all part of maintaining the delusion … it’s like the EVs fans ignoring the fact that EVs are incredibly expensive — and we do not have enough materials to transition nor to provide the electricity to power them…

              They fall back on — we’ll work it out…

            • Withnail says:

              But this time there won’t be any towns 🙁

              For a few centuries there won’t be. Say 300 years for enough land and forest to regenerate to support more than villages. There needs to be a major die off for that to happen of course.

          • nikoB says:

            Add to that fresh water. Once you head out in to the country where are you going to get fresh water from that won’t make you sick. All ater will need to boiled if it comes from a stream that is near suburbia or rural livestocked lands. disease will take down the hordes in days. Think dysentery.

            • Xabier says:

              Many armies disintegrated for that very reason in the past: they perished from the effects of their own excretions, in effect!

            • Fast Eddy says:

              Yep -disease is going to rip through populations both in cities and in rural areas… infestations of plague etc hit farms … rats are not only in cities

              No need try to argue — just make sure you have your Super Fent.. you will thank me

          • Fast Eddy says:

            I live rural – very few neighbours – most of them are not preppers… actually only one would be considered well prepped…. I wish him luck.

            It was the same for the last rural place I lived – the vast majority were not prepped at all

            Not sure where this perception of rural people all being ready for the implosion … some of them have veg gardens -but they’d starve if forced to live off the gardens..

            Ever raided the old man’s garden when you were a kid? We would do this at night – he never caught us. Never

            Oh and they all need to water their gardens – there are not many places that have enough rain to keep a garden growing.

            Pumps don’t work when there is no BAU

          • Jef Jelten says:

            Sounds like a wonderful world to live in. Is it really worth all the effort?

        • Xabier says:

          Why did the Vikings hit on England for centuries? And later William the Conquerer?

          Lots of coinage and jewellery in circulation – a rich country.

          And lots of nice well-tended farms they could take over, after knocking the Saxons on the head.

          Martenson is on crack, or something.

        • Jan says:

          Dmitri Orlov, 2008:

          “Stage 5: Cultural collapse. Faith in the goodness of humanity is lost. People lose their capacity for “kindness, generosity, consideration, affection, honesty, hospitality, compassion, charity” (Turnbull, The Mountain People). Families disband and compete as individuals for scarce resources. The new motto becomes “May you die today so that I die tomorrow” (Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago). There may even be some cannibalism.

          Although many people imagine collapse to be a sort of elevator that goes to the sub-basement (our Stage 5) no matter which button you push, no such automatic mechanism can be discerned. Rather, driving us all to Stage 5 will require that a concerted effort be made at each of the intervening stages. That all the players seem poised to make just such an effort may give this collapse the form a classical tragedy – a conscious but inexorable march to perdition – rather than a farce (“Oops! Ah, here we are, Stage 5.” – “So, whom do we eat first?” – “Me! I am delicious!”) Let us sketch out this process.”


          I agree, but that will only be one or two weeks. People die after 3 days without water. They will kill each other but not find any water.

          I doubt cannibalism. As I have heard, meat tastes so badly that people cannot eat it. Except a few with a rare gene condition.

          Dont forget it takes 6 months until you can harvest new food. Do you have some seeds?

          • Xabier says:

            One is reminded of those classic lines from Alien:

            ‘We’re in the express elevator to Hell, going down!’

            ‘We’re in the pipe, 5 by 5’.

            The experience will, for each of us be determined mostly by that mantra of real estate salesmen: ‘Location, location, location!’

            And our luck.

        • Fast Eddy says:

          That’s the Little House on the Prairie Delusion…

          All those neighbours who do not have a fully sustaining prepper operation (hmmm… does anyone have a fully sustaining prepper operation??? – I dunno nobody takes the Fast Eddy Challenge…. that would blow a few holes below the water line…)

          Well they will raid the garden. And a half a tank of petrol will get you a long way… so some of the folks in the cities — and a LOT in the suburbs — will be heading to where the food is grown…

          Oh and what about family members – all those cousins who called uncle prepper crazy .. he’ll be their new best friend when they pull in with the RVs and say – hi unc – we’re heard – what’s for dinner?

          The only way to effectively prep would be to hunker down in a totally inaccessible place… extreme deep bush … maybe an island far from people…

          guess why so few preppers do this???? cuz it’s expensive bringing in all the stuff you need to prep hahahaha… get it? bringing all the stuff in … from walmart… and costco… on the back of a trailer hahahahahahahaah

          But then there are those fuel ponds…

      • Withnail says:

        Most people will be mostly vegan as they have been throughout history because they can’t afford/obtain meat.

      • Xabier says:

        The ancient Celts did a lot of hair-dying, personal jewellery and tattoos.

        Doesn’t take much to do interesting tribal scars either.

        Human and animal bones and horns make charming personal adornments, too.

        Colourful Collapse! Re-skill as a shaman now!

      • Fast Eddy says:

        Doomie preppers who will only horde organic beans heheh

    • Herbie Ficklestein. says:

      . Milk and dairy products
      Milk and other dairy products, such as yogurt and cheese, are great sources of protein and several vitamins and minerals, including vitamin B12.

      One cup (240 ml) of whole milk supplies 46% of the DV for vitamin B12 (28Trusted Source).

      Cheese is also a rich source of vitamin B12. One large slice (22 grams) of Swiss cheese contains about 28% of the DV (29Trusted Source).

      Full-fat plain yogurt may also be a decent source. It has even been shown to help improve vitamin B12 status in people who are deficient in this vitamin (30Trusted Source, 31Trusted Source).

      Interestingly, studies have found that your body absorbs the vitamin B12 in milk and dairy products better than the vitamin B12 in beef, fish, or eggs (32, 33Trusted Source, 34Trusted Source).

      B12 content
      Dairy is a great source of vitamin B12. One cup (240 mL) of whole milk provides 46% of the DV, and one slice (22 grams) of Swiss cheese contains 28%.

      I read Diet for a Small Planet and Living the Good Life …adopted a veggie diet but have added cheese milk because of B12…
      Hard to say what will be available afterwards…but like salt and other minerals and vitamins…it will be a challenge.

      Oh, Read Diet for a New America too way back and visited Helen Nearing before her death…Seems Robbins contacted her about the book and she was very pleased she inspired him also from what remember..
      The reason he wrote the book was his father’s Baskin and Robbins Ice cream outlets destroyed many people’s health.
      He refused any monies from the estate because of it and like very austerely

      • I thought that animals have B12 in their diet because they eat “dirty food.” If, as in America, they are raise in a barn with clean food, they need B12 supplements. The B12 comes from supplements in that case.

  11. Ed says:

    Hi Norman, you seem to be reasonable to me. I do not understand why you have been selected as the scapegoat.

    • NomadicBeer says:

      Why don’t you ask Norm what does he think of censorship, medical totalitarianism or the right of the governments to control (or take) your life?

      If he won’t avoid the questions (which he does recently) you will get to know him better. It’s quite an education to see the spirit of great men like Stalin and Hitler is alive and well.

      • davidinamonthorayearoradecade says:

        he is so worried about a soon arriving rellligious fascsist USA government.


        there is right NOW a worldwide billion person rellligion that is totally brrutally Patrriarchal, even telling the females how they MUST dress.

        this FAR righttwing rellligion has dictatorrial control of quite a few countries, and they IMPOSE their Shayria Law on the countries they rule over.

        I would think that he would be absolutely livvid incenssed totally irayte about this Fascsism disguised as Rellligion.

        and yet, NOT A WORD from him about this.

        why norm why?

        • Replenish says:

          I’ve bumped my head against this question for 30 years. Why do Liberals protect groups that could ultimately be a threat to their own lives and livelihoods? Why do they want to eliminate private ownership of firearms, national sovereignty and individual autonomy? Why did the Quakers stash their long rifles in a central depository to preclude their use against hostile Indian attacks? The answer is they are missionaries, 1st columnists of collectivism. If you are patient with them they will readily admit their goals. People who rile them up, pick on their age/hair color and/or make it personal obfuscate the situation. Let them be speak so it can be clear and fight like hell to limit their influence. Any group that destabilizes or accelerates the demise of their enemies is a protected class. It’s a pathological belief system and slave/plantation mentality that poor, working class and other liberated people of all colors will be rising up against until the energy runs out. f789 them and the horse they road in on, lol.

          • Fast Eddy says:

            Liberals are just really stooopid people … it is possible to cure it though … I used to read the NYTimes … that stopped soon after Obama was installed as the puppet.

            That said I am not a Fox convert

            I do support ending all medical treatments except for injuries — ending the sale of all garbage food … the death penalty for smoking … and forcing people (using PR) to exercise.

            Exercise could involve learning to fight…


        • theo-fascism (which is what youre talking about) doesn’t come up very much on this forum, (it doesn’t really have a place here) hence i don’t start ranting about it.

          I don’t rant for the sake of ranting

          Any point of view i put forward on that subject wouldn’t change the situation one bit.

          All religions carry the taint of totalitarianism, some more than others.

          • Religions tend to keep groups together. They often fight other groups bound by religions. Thus, they are helpful in “musical chairs” types of situations.

            • i agree

              trouble arises when one groud dominates–and think its ‘god’ will’

              and proceed to subjugate everyone else by force

            • When there is not enough food to go around, it is pretty clear that one group will need to dominate. If they all try to share the inadequate food supply, they all will die from inadequate nutrition.

          • Xabier says:

            Norman stop telling blatant untruths: you have mentioned it regularly in your sage predictions about the future!

            So often that I had earlier concluded you’d been molested by a preacher or something in your tender youth.

            Please try to be more truthful.

            And do stop describing anyone you disagree with as a ‘ranter’, that too is untrue.

            Of course, I am aware that this is futile, as it is asking you to be no longer the Norman we know all too well, but someone of integrity and truthfulness who gives straight answers to straight questions.

            • Xabier

              numerous times in the past (over a couple of years at least) you have brought up..”being molested by a preacher”

              so often in fact, it arouses my suspicions

              It is possible to have opinions without outside physical influences

              As with eddys sex obsession—that is pretty obvious too.

              I have no need to use that unsavoury thread

              Why do you?

            • childlike string of ‘questions’ eddy

              answering you is like conversing with an answering machine

              ultimately pointless and non productive

              which is why i dont bother

            • Fast Eddy says:

              Then you need to stop asking Xabier to respond to you .

      • drb753 says:

        It is all good to clutch pearls about how nasty Fauci is. But in the long term Fauci is irrelevant. Clutching pearls for a month or more is a sign of immaturity. The population is going to decline regardless, jab or not. The people in charge apparently want some form of controlled decline. It is normal and has been tried in the past.

        • Withnail says:

          I really don’t care about the stupid jabs either. If they result in a higher death rate, which I don’t think has been proven, it doesn’t matter either way to me. I have not had any personally.

        • Xabier says:

          Nothing like this has ever been attempted before, and murder is murder, even if we are doomed to die anyway.

          And this is secret murder, somehow even more repugnant.

          And using people for genetic experimentation while pretending to protect them. Again, unprecedented.

          But yes, deep re-organisation has been implemented sometimes in order to remain viable: late Rome, for instance, when this town was fortified, etc.

          They had no real theoretical understanding that they were fighting decline and collapse, though.

          • Withnail says:

            They were aware of deforestation but it was very difficult to fight it given the lack of resources available to guard forests.

            They did try to protect forests with religion, for example there were sacred groves of trees in many locations and in Athens it was a serious crime to chop down a sacred olive tree (I think all olive trees in city limits were sacred).

            These methods unfortunately didnt work, in many cases it was reported that sacred groves had illegally been chopped down.

        • where was controlled decline tried in the past?

          • Joseph Tainter talks about an economy (in Asia, if I remember correctly) disbanding its army as a move toward less demand on resources.

            Of course, we all lived through the 2020 shut-ins, which were an attempt at controlled decline merged with a huge ramp up in debt.

            • i disagree that the intention was ‘controlled decline”

              it was knee jerk reaction to a medical looming problem that no one knew how to deal with.

              The back reference was the 1921 virus—50m dead out of a world pop of 2bn (do the math)

              that was where the panic came from

              right or wrong is another matter entirely. I offer no opinion on that.

            • Fast Eddy says:

              It was no more dangerous than the flu — except for those who trust the BBC…

              Those fools got disinformation and injected the experiment into their bodies hahahahaha

            • the 1921 hoax

            • Withnail says:

              that was where the panic came from

              There was no panic except manufactured panic among the public.

            • Mike Roberts says:

              There was no panic except manufactured panic among the public.

              So, there was no panic except that there was a panic (manufactured or not).

            • Fast Eddy says:

              Remember the videos of the sick people falling dead in Wuhan?

              Now what would an extremely sick – near death – person be doing walking the streets?


            • Mike Roberts says:

              There were no shut-ins but there were varying restrictions imposed in various regions. An intention to controlled decline seems unlikely given the pro-growth policies of all politicians.

            • Withnail says:

              There were no shut-ins but there were varying restrictions imposed in various regions

              There were shut ins in the UK. People were confined to their homes on pain of arrest and some people were charged with offences for leaving their homes without a good enough reason.

              An intention to controlled decline seems unlikely given the pro-growth policies of all politicians.

              Except that the politicians know growth is not possible any more. Countries are no longer trying to stimulate growth.

      • /////medical totalitarianism or the right of the governments to control (or take) your life?////

        answering your question in the negative would incense you even more, because the certainty that the ‘government wants to take your life.’ is immovably entrenched in your psyche.

        So why should i waste my time trying to persuade you otherwise.?

        Only agreement with you would satisfy your sense of righteous indignation—which in turn has been fed by immersion in social mass media.

        Which is not a good idea…even if it does reinforce the BS you have already absorbed.

        Not my problem.

        Governments have always had the right to take your life–they can conscript you to fight wars
        I dont lose any sleep over it.

    • Tim Groves says:

      The UK authorities are planning to burn Norman in effigy on bonfires around the UK on the fifth of November—if we can gather enough burnable material, which is problematic given the fuel shortage.

      They’re calling the festival “End of More Day” on the basis that if they burn the messenger, they can ignore the message.

      • that is an idea that has always been popular Tim

        I wrote the The End of More in 2013—how are things looking right now?


        And ‘told you so’ gives me no pleasure at all.
        because i know exactly what it means

    • davidinamonthorayearoradecade says:

      Hi Ed,

      ask me a question and I will give you a straight answer.

      I won’t dodge, obfuscate, or be evasive.

      norm likes words:

      not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does:
      “He was being somewhat disingenuous as well as evasive.”

    • Xabier

      i do enjoy watching you leap into the abyss of conclusion

      You have berated me with stories of ‘millions of dead an maimed people–children whatever.

      my jokes have been about you, and and your obsessions with it, if you care to reexamine them, and not constantly parrot your mentor, who makes up such a tirade of utter BS, I can do no more than humour the two of you.

      It is my disagreement with you that annoys you–why Ive no idea

      People disagree with me all the time–why should it bother me–it doesnt

    • lol Ed

      You need to go back in the archives for an answer to that question.

      Refusing to accept that moonlandings were faked (all 6 of them btw), and refusing the believe that the WTC collapse was brought about by the CIA, (Plus other BS) has incensed people in certain quarters. Because I don’t agree with all the vax stuff, makes me guilty of infanticide.
      Truly weird.

      Why I have no idea.

      All these so called ‘certainties’ are extracted from social media threads, put together by conspiraholics. I have the temerity to say so.

      This drives some people into childish tantrums. I just find that funny.

      I presume to point out that the emperor is quite naked, as have others of course. But said emperor starts commenting at 8am–and continues all day–every day, Offering ‘certainties’ in all directions.
      Most of it attention-seeking BS again. (problem is finding the true bits)

      Lack of cohesive argument results in scraping the bottom of the barrel for sexual innuendo.–(as you may have noticed). I don’t need to do that.
      I just find it amusing .
      Such obsessions carry only one meaning. (Guess)

      some think the emperor’s clothes are wonderful

      saying they are not makes me the scapegoat.

      It’s a very old story.

      And Ed—your sentiments will get you blacklisted by the society of conspiraholics—so be warned.

  12. Fast Eddy says:

    A Wellesley Student Speaks Out: ANON. WELLESLEY STUDENT, “If Wellesley—or if any one of the other institutions with remaining vaccine mandates—thinks it faces no consequences, it is sorely mistaken:

    as students, as well as faculty and staff, trace their own adverse medical events back to college mandates, the buck for the physical damage will stop with colleges, morally, legally, and financially.


    they have no idea… nobody hangs… but everybody burns

    • Links to a very well written letter by a student:


      “I was appalled, but not surprised, when on Saturday, September 24, the Dean of Students at Wellesley College, where I am a student, buried at the end of an email to the student body that all students at Wellesley would be required to receive a shot of the new bivalent Covid-19 booster. Then on October 11, we were informed this mandate would take effect on December 1, nearly three weeks before the end of the semester.

      This announcement follows similar decisions from Tufts University, Harvard University, and the University of California, among others. It also follows a growing body of evidence that there are, for a non-trivial percentage of the vaccinated—especially the young—serious, potentially lifelong, and potentially fatal side effects—such as myocarditis and autoimmune disease—to the vaccine, which CDC director Rochelle Walensky acknowledges does not stop transmission of the coronavirus.

      Moreover, this newest bivalent vaccine, designed to protect against the now-defunct Omicron variant, was approved without any trials confirming safety or efficacy. And regarding the latter, at least, the slim evidence we do have is not promising. So why is Wellesley—and why are all these other colleges—mandating their disproportionately young, disproportionately healthy students partake in a human trial for a vaccine that does not stop the transmission of a variant that became almost entirely obsolete months ago?

      The message from Wellesley could not be more clear: the education of students here, or at least our ability to complete it, is contingent on our willingness to take a medical treatment that did not exist when I enrolled here. There is no consent, only coercion, with participation in a human trial joining physical education and foreign language proficiency as a prerequisite for graduation.

      The letter goes on from there, saying that the mandates are based on politics, not science. The statement quoted above is from near the end. It implies that the students will sue the college, if there are bad outcomes.

      • Ed says:

        I would call it cult fidelity rather than politics. I see more and more behavior in the cult group think class. The ruling politicians are willing to jump on the bandwagon only far more dangerous as they have the guns and jail system to back them up.

  13. Fast Eddy says:

    Researchers at an Australian university have found that Covid-19 activates the same inflammatory response in the brain as Parkinson’s disease, potentially putting people at greater risk of developing neurodegenerative conditions.


    Hahaha… here’s the PR Team working hard to convince the MORE-ONS all those injuries are not the vaccine rather they are caused by Covid ….

  14. banned says:

    This is what happens when you create nuclear reactors without having a comprehensive plan to contain the radioactive waste. When they can get the Hanford waste to the WIPP facility the Wipp personnel get to try to store it without really knowing what it is. Because no one really knows what it is. It often has multiple hazardous properties. Without knowing the properties of a hazardous substance it is not possible to contain it without extreme risk. The WIPP personel are heros. They fight a war of a threat that exists to everyone’s safety every day. Standard HAZMAT practices can not keep the WIPP personnel safe. Heros. Personnel trying to clean up Hanford. Heros. Thank god we at least have the WIPP facility. Thank god some attempt was made to safely store the waste. The WIPP facility is for military nuclear waste only. Nuclear power generation has no such facility. Wouldnt it be a good idea to get the existing nuclear waste secured in a facility similar to WIPP? Wouldnt it be a good idea to create a storage facility to try to contain the waste- and transport plan to that facility- so that the personnel that have to deal with the waste can do so with methodology so they can try to do so with some small degree of safety? Is it unreasonable to have that expectation prior to new reactors being built? Or should we just repeat the nightmare of Hanford over and over and over? To some extent its just not possible to clean Hanford up. Multiple contractors have quit regardless of the compensation. Too bad the facility didnt put a comprhensive plan in place to deal with the waste.

    THere are lots of dangerous industries. The nuclear power industry shouldnt be singled out however they are not singled out they are given a exemption from responsibility. They should have the same responsibilities all industries have to dispose safely of their waste. Its a problem. Existing power generation creates hazardous waste too. Price Anderson should be repealed. The nuclear power industry should competently develop comprehensive plans to both store the existing waste and certainly do so before creating any more waste. In liu of doing that we can look forward to Hanford over and over and over. It seems to me that if comprehensive storage of hazardous waste is not part of the nuclear power industry it means creating uninhabitable dead zones are the unspoken acceptable price for nuclear power generation.

    Should we just repeat the nightmare of Hanford over and over and over? IMO thats exactly what we are looking at without nuclear waste containment being part of any nuclear power generation plan. Frankly Im shocked. Why isnt this industry stepping up? Why dont the come forth saying of course effective containment is part of our plan. Of course it is this is what we are going to do. OF COURSE. Thats what I would expect from a responsible industry with obvious technical savvy. OF COURSE!!! HAZMAT is integral to technical competence. Instead they basically shout- were not competent- we have no intention of fulfilling our responsibility to store our industries waste safely. Instead we here arguments that the waste isnt harmful. Instead we hear how other industries waste is more dangerous. They basically shout we are not to be trusted in their refusal to discuss safe containment of the waste of their industry and their special 007 Price -Anderson license to create HAZMAT havoc. Will no leader in this industry come out and set a example that nuclear power can indeed be safely created and assume responsibility for a comprehensive containment strategy or will they just continue to pretend its not part of their industry? Will no one in this industry demonstrate competence and professionalism not to mention concern about public safety?


    • Lastcall says:

      It appears that the oil industry has the answer; sell nearly exhausted oil wells to a shell company and walk away from the clean up/shutdown costs.

    • Nuclear waste seems to be subject that is hard to fully understand. Is it a huge problem, a moderate problem, or something we can live with? So far, very few people have died from radiation poisoning related to nuclear, as far as we know.

      It seems like a big concern is ingestion of radioactive particles, if there is an event that releases such particles. So far, we haven’t run into many of these. Perhaps Fukushima, but not from spent fuel.

      We now have nuclear plants in many parts of the world. I wonder if there is anything that we really can do, with respect to this issue. We don’t seem to have better alternatives is the problem.

      • reante says:

        Radiation poisoning is analogous to the vaxxxes. Because they both operate on the genetic level, they both maximize plausible deniability. We can cut through that fog.

    • reante says:

      I’m confident they have a plan. Timing is everything. My best guess is all the spent rods go in ocean trenches where it stays cool, and what does still radiate will be hyperinsulated by the water column because water is an excellent insulator of radiation (hence the swimming in the top of a spent fuel pool mythos). In actuality they may have a better idea.

      • You have voiced that crazy idea before…There is hardly any idea that is as bad a putting high level nuclear waste into the ocean, even if dumped into deep trenches – I would much rather take chances with lower risk cooling ponds failing and possible overheated cladding failure causing a release; ocean disposal is a sure path to guaranteed release of maximum magnitude – seawater corrosion of cladding is a given leading to subsequent widespread transport and greater probable incorporation into food chain on a scale much larger than from less probable atmospheric or terrestrial release..the objections raised to deep geologic formation disposal have primarily been focused on proximity & low probabilty scenariors of off-site transport due to groundwater interaction, your plan makes sure of maximum pollutant transport.

        Other than failure to act or corrupt misappropriation of decommissioning funds, the only possible plan that “they” (nieve psycopaths with their hyper-hubris) could possibly have is that after population reduction they dreamily envision reprocessing to energize a future downsized trans-singularity civilization – on-site casking and/or subsequent deep geologic disposal/storage would significantly preclude that “reuse” scenario.

        Currently, power companies report on their books significant escrowed funds (billions according to Florida Power & Light financial reports) for decommissioning of Nuclear Plants..we should be insisting that they use these funds to either accelerate casking of cooled spent fuel rods rather than leaving them in “hot” ponds to limit consequences of any release via cooling pond failure. This should be ongoing while plants are still operating rather stockpiling in underdesigned ponds rather than waiting for plant shutdown which I believe is current approach. Alternatively or in addition, upgrading of backup cooling systems for fail safe redundancy following grid failure should be considered (maybe a good use of PV tech – mandate sufficient PV power at all sites to run cooling for 10 years without grid connection) and/or perhaps recovery of waste heat in useful drying or other low-heat processes to partially offset cost of enhanced cooling (low temperature Rankin cycle process might be of use to generate backup power)..anything would be better than just letting escrow be diverted to other investment “opportunities”

        Dumping in ocean precludes any possible positive future use of this material and guarantees maximum ecological damage.

        • reante says:

          Thanks for the feedback. Now explain to me exactly how that planetary ecosystem diffusion of radioactive materials would occur. I’m under the impression that nuclear fuel is a very heavy metal ore. As I said water is an excellent insulator of radioactivity. I look forward to you charting the migration of radioactivity throughout the biosphere for me after the corrosion of the cladding. If you can’t actually back up what your saying then I’d appreciate you saying so, so that everyone here knows where the conversation currently stands on this very important matter.

          Realize that ‘my crazy solution’ here is the expedient best case scenario for a worst case scenario of industrial collapse. And like I also said, they — or you — may have a better idea. I’m all ears.

          • reante says:

            BTW, dry casks are only good for a few decades.

          • reante says:

            They can put the assemblies in cages.

          • Early in history of nuclear and other industry we used to dump all kinds of stuff in oceans and rivers including nuclear waste..wonder why we stopped?..Mankind used to think ocean was infinite and “dilution was solution to pollution”..finally some of us realized or were taught that that is not the correct approach..apparently you are still in dark ages in that regard. So yes, given that experience and advances in waste disposal technology and understanding of relative risks of alternatives, I think that most with any similar training or understanding of current applied sciences in this regard would consider your suggestion of ocean dumping as “Cra..Cra..Crazy”.

            Suggest you peruse some pollutant transport text books, perhaps add some environmental chemistry (arcane fugacity concepts helpful) and maybe brush up on your ecology and health physics particulary as regard mechanisms of bioconcentration of toxins. Maybe also brush up on the lingo too..you dont “insulate” particle-decay based radiation..”insulation” is for stopping thermal radiation to reduce heat flux..radioactive waste disposal looking to maximize or provide sufficient heat flux while “shielding” external environment from radiation eminating from particle decay while also immobilizing the decaying radioactive matter to prevent transport to undesirable locations which may be unshielded..water can shield some forms of immobilized radioactivity and disperse (not insulate) thermal loads but open ocean disposal does not immobilize the waste and assures that it will transport where it will eventually incorporate in biomass where it is no longer shielded and can bioconcentrate as climbs the food chain. Much faster
            transport and dispersion of larger loads of toxins in aquatic environments (via hydrologic processes) as compared to loads and dispersion via atmospheric or geologic processes. (Thus the desire to have a dry deep geologic disposal site without faults that allow for potential of mobilization)

            Dont believe me, well then I guess it is all a hoax them telling us that Tuna from the sea or freshwater fish from modern waterways carry heightend mercury loads as compared to preindustial situation because of ocean, river and atmospheric dumping and transport of that heavy metal. With your thinking would eat Fish from the Great Lakes every day versus current recommendations to avoid high frequency consumption. Obviously according to you that heavy metal could never find its way into the fish and back to you or other higher life forms. And per your heavy metal wont move logic, certainly the same couldn’t happen with other heavy elements found in decaying nuclear waste upon hyper-mobilization after thoughtlessly dumping in the ocean.

            I gave you a list of alternatives to proactively reduce risk of current overloaded (relative to orginal design standards) fuel assembly cooling ponds.. In an emergency or as a last resort for expediency would be much less effort and much better to simply bury in shallow pits spread out enough so that themal output is dispersed sufficient to prevent rupture (minimize insulation to thermal flux desired because want sufficient thermal dispersion to prevent ignition) while providing the most sheilding and immobilization possible within the available construction effort/work/energy availability..kinda like what the Soviets pragmatically did with Chernobyl (fortunately they did not attempt to dispose of that mess in the ocean)..or if less urgency required then instead of significant logistics of transporting to deep sea trenches would be less effort to transport into existing mostly completed Yucca moutain facility or similar facilities under construction in other parts of world or to the most suitable existing subterranian structures/mines such that potential for hydrologic transport is minimized.

            • reante says:

              Right on. So dry land burials that avoid water tables as much as possible make more sense because when the containers disintegrate then the fission products will just get absorbed(?) by the surrounding dry material and remain immobilized there so long as the material is not disturbed. That’s good information to know. Seems like that should be doable. The politics of it won’t be an issue where we’re headed.

            • Fast Eddy says:

              I am impressed at how you guys just dream up solutions. Maybe you need to contact the People in Charge (the tranny freak in the US)… and let them know you have these great ideas.

              Why not also try using Voodoo on the ponds? Or have Copperfield disappear them?

            • MM says:

              I am not sure if there not is a difference in downstream as in river or upstream as in deep ocean.
              But ocean ground with critters is even below that anyways.
              Ocean currents are probably a mix of both. The sea just makes sure that everything on this planet just gets mixed up pretty well.

            • Withnail says:

              Dilution is the solution. Nuclear waste becomes an irrelevance when diluted by the water in the oceans.

            • Fast Eddy says:


              The minimum lethal amount of ingested polonium is 6.8 trillionths of a gram. Higher doses will kill more quickly. Once inside someone’s body, polonium-210 is not easily detectable from outside, although an individual’s urine or faeces would show traces of alpha radiation. https://www.reuters.com/article/palestinians-arafat-swiss-polonium-idINDEE87T0EJ20120830

              According to a 1995 report from the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, you would have to ingest about . 5 grams of plutonium to die immediately https://foreignpolicy.com/2011/03/30/how-dangerous-is-the-plutonium-leaking-from-the-japanese-nuclear-reactor/#:~:text=According%20to%20a%201995%20report,1%20grams%20of%20cyanide.

              Spent nuclear fuel stays a radiation hazard for extended periods of time with Half-lifes as high as 24,000,000 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spent_nuclear_fuel

              In a nutshell – a tiny amount will cause cancer… and it does not degrade so these particles will be circulating through the air land and water for thousands of years…

              It will be impossible to avoid them… they will be everywhere…

              Hey maybe you can get a machine like Van Allan used to measure the highly radioactive belts that surround the Earth – and just avoid hot spots hahahaha

              But how will you power your machine hahahahahahaha

              Prepping is futile – just like the injections are dangerous… but this is not about facts or logic…

              It’s about hopium… the preppers gonna prep – and norm gonna boost.

            • banned says:

              “So dry land burials that avoid water tables as much as possible make more sense because when the containers disintegrate then the fission products will just get absorbed(?) by the surrounding dry material and remain immobilized there so long as the material is not disturbed. ”

              The newest Idea is deep salt deposits would be best. The idea is the waste will percolate into the salt and stay in place after time ends the cask containment. This idea is used in another argument. We are storing on site while we come up with the best solution. 100,000 years seems the most we are capable of trying to contain for. The argument is something that must last that long deserves some time for consideration. That our capability to implement storage may degrade rapidly is not a consideration.

              I see no change ahead. Any state that gets selected for storage will not like it. That states politicians make it a rallying cry and that gets them elected. Any president that is in office will select a red state if they are blue and visa versa. Obama and Reid canned Yucca. Trump tried to move ahead with Yucca because Nevada is a blue state-nothing to lose. Yucca mountain has become publicized as unfair to Nevada so much that I doubt it will ever fly. My guess the future holds more impasse not state of the art facilities. When the alternative site to Yucca in Texas was discuss the Texas politicians began acting exactly like the Nevada politicians. The talk now is of a site that has “consent” of the people of that state. Good luck with that. Maybe this is why Finland put the waste on a island with few inhabitants.

            • reante says:

              MM, Withnail,

              Yeah Im not discounting the ocean trench disposal method. For a global collapse initiative it may still be the best option for most countries. Plants are on coastlines and waterways, so logistics may be simpler over all. Maybe everything gets encased in concrete onsite first assuming water pressure in the trenches wouldn’t collapse them. I read last night that ocean burial is still one of the candidates among scientists in the industry. The recorded water circulation patterns at the bottom of the Marianas trench are extremely slow. Maybe not a lot of mixing at al. Maybe they would nuke the shit out of the cliff sides above where they dumped the stuff, if that’s possible. Quick and dirty. Maybe that’s not possible at those depths I don’t know. Hope this doesn’t get me in trouble with the expert. CraCray out.

            • Fast Eddy says:

              Let’s make a list:

              The Ten Most Ridiculous Ideas for Disposing of Spent Nuclear Fuel that have Zero Scientific Basis:

          • banned says:

            The trouble is not identifying a site. They have spent billions identifying suitable sites.

            With Yucca mountain the Nevada citizens said not our state. Why should we take responsibility for this hazard? I think they spent 30 billion on Yucca prior to Harry Reid and Obama saying no way. That was kind of the last hurrah. No one wants it in their state. So we pile it up in spent fuel pools instead.

          • Fast Eddy says:

            Just accept reality – and hope for the Super Fent option to be made available.

            Do people really want to live in a world with no energy? It would be a miserable existence… morning to night grinding away — always on the edge of starvation …

            Never knowing when a gang of marauders will appear and put a bullet in your head and rape your family….

            And then you die.

            Why not take the easy way out?

            • Now FE you are only talking about post agricultural heirarchical organization type living..could always go to Brazil and try to become member of Yanomami or start your own tribe deep in the forest..watch “the Last Forest” on Netflix..low energy consumption with adequate food, laid back lifestyle averaging 4 hrs per day of work, long life expectancy with religious required hallucinogenic guided rituals and an always open VIP room all about you…lol

            • Withnail says:

              could always go to Brazil and try to become member of Yanomami or start your own tribe deep in the forest..watch “the Last Forest” on Netflix..low energy consumption with adequate food, laid back lifestyle averaging 4 hrs per day of work

              I think this (the TV show) may be misinformation. I saw a youtube video where a tribe contacted modern humans for the first time and they said that they were always hungry in the jungle.

        • banned says:

          Well humans basically make things they dont want go away in three ways.

          Burn it
          bury it
          dump in ocean

          Dumping trash in the ocean was banned in 88.

          Moving the spent fuel to geologically stable bedrock where it has minimal chance of entering the water table seems the best bet.

          Finland state of the art facility puts it over a 1000 feet below sea level. Wouldnt be my choice but at least its somthing!


          The USA cant get its shit together for a repository even with all the land at its disposal. The current philosophy is “no hurry”.

          Yucca mountain. What a clusterF***.


          • Ed says:

            Pay a third world nation to take the radioactive waste say Chad or Afghanistan.

          • eKnock says:

            John McPhee”s THE CURVE OF BINDING ENERGY reports the efforts of fission bomb designer, Ted Taylor, to alert the atomic energy industries to the dangers of spent fuel in respect to being stolen and used to build “dirty bombs”.


            Written in 1973, when nuclear produced electricity was going to be “too cheap to meter”, the book is a fascinating look at the life of the man who designed the largest fission bomb ever tested and the smallest fission bomb ever tested.

            Taylor testified before Congress that while all the Safeguards for handling the spent fuel were too lax, he thought the greatest vulnerability was in the transportation of spent fuel. “Coincidentally”, spent fuel was soon mandated to be stored on-site at the power plants and many proposed plants had their plans put on hold.

      • Fast Eddy says:

        That is no solution – the ponds are very complex operations that require computer controlled environments…

        Dumping the rods into the ocean would poison the oceans… then of course due to convection the poisons would spread across the land and poison your veggies and air… and water…

        The problem with this stuff is that it takes centuries to degrade… it is the perfect long acting poison…

        It’s kinda like how the van allen belts prevent us from leaving the planet… the spent fuel ponds prevent anyone from surviving the extinction…

        It’s as if there are inviolable rules built into the simulation — like the Hotel California with radiation.

        • Didnt say that suggestions were “solutions” only looking for better or lower risk situation..Only “solution” is complete reprocessing w/ accelerated decay to low level radiation state..think the Russians are working on that while we in West do nothing.

          What I proposed was taking steps to reduce risk. Cra..Cray’s ocean disposal idea maximizes risk and long term harm to biosphere..Yucca mountain storage or other deep geologic storage even with slight chances of fault slippage and hydrologic transport makes for significantly lower risk and low potential for worldwide impact. Dry casking (even if some of the casks “fail”) is much lower risk than leaving all those vulnerable assemblies that have sufficiently cooled in a hot pond that can upon failure mobilize much more toxic material than would be mobilized if the stuff had been put in a cask. Some immobilization and sheilding with better thermal flux considerations is better than less. Risk of dry cask failure limits potential impacts primarily to regional impacts (although those familiar with concept/results of fugacity modeling know that to some extent all pollutants/toxins eventually end up everywhere – with radioactive substance want to slow that rate of dispersion such maximize decay priot to significant/ubiquitous transport)

          Short of dry casking currently cooled elements even though we could be doing that now, I would much rlike to see more money spent on redundant fail safe heat dispersion systems for a hot pond when such that it would operate for a sufficient length of time without grid power to assure as many as possible assemblies are cooled sufficiently and not at risk of ignition and dispersion.

          It appears that these steps toward semi-permanent waste immobilization are not being taken even when supposedly billions are in escrow for plant decommisioning..I can only speculate that not taking steps to reduce risk because that money is being used elsewhere and there is not liquidity to direct it toward intended purposes at accelerated schedule or that someone is hoping against hope that they can reprocess/repurpose the fuel that is sitting in ponds for future use. Given current political situation, dont think US is gonna send it to Russia even if the Russians do have supposedly developed a feasible closed loop reprocessing/reuse cycle/process.

          • Fast Eddy says:

            I have spent a lot of time on this issue… a lot… and I have not found any research that suggests dumping spent fuel ponds into the ocean would mitigate.

            Why the ocean? Why not ship them to the south pole and leave them there — surely the cold air would prevent them from poisoning the planet? Oh right – it’s not just any cold they need – they need computer controlled climate powered electricity otherwise… well you know… they poison the planet.

          • MM says:

            I am not sure but Afaik breeders accumulate Plutonium in the long run.
            Got any good info on the nuclear chain reactions involved in that entire (!) “reprocessing” cycle ?
            Reprocessing also means to separate elements. This is difficult because they do not all dissolve in water and they may have chemical processes with the solvent that does not separate them.
            Once I read an article about a reprocessing thingy and they said “Well, when we have solved this problem of separating the elements, it will be very easy”

        • nikoB says:

          Not really a problem for life. It will fast track species with the best DNA repair systems and fast life cycles to flourish and hence the new world order will begin.

          Unfortunately we and most species alive won’t be part of it. But I think that is just the usual pattern, just ask the dinosaurs.

          • Fast Eddy says:

            Planet of the Cockroaches!

          • Withnail says:

            You can’t fast track mutations. Only very minor mutations have a chance of not being harmful. That’s how evolution works, slowly.

            • Fast Eddy says:

              I guess it’s not a Bruce Banner or Spiderman thing … where you get exposed and you immediately evolve to have super human powers.

              Oh well… extinction it is

        • Withnail says:

          It really wouldnt poison the oceans because the oceans are very big.

      • Tim Groves says:

        Other options include bunging the high-level waste into a new-gangled reactor and fissioning the nastier bits of it down to no-so-nasty, and paying Elon or Jeff Bezos to blast it into space and set the controls for the heart of the Sun while paying congregations around the world to pray none of the rockets blow up in the atmosphere.

        • All is Dust says:

          I second the rockets idea. Blast it into space. Can we create a second sun? Let’s get it done.

        • Peter Cassidy says:

          It is worth remembering that higher actinides like plutonium make up only about 1% of spent fuel by mass. And a large 1GWe nuclear reactor discharges about 30 tonnes of spent fuel per year. This is for a powerplant that will power a city of 1-2 million people. So we are talking about very small volumes of material. The long lived actinides produced by a large reactor in 1 year of operation, could fit into a suitcase.

          In comparison, a 1GWe coal burning power plant, will produce 100,000 tonnes of radioactive and poisonous ash every year. This ash is dumped in lagoons, where it can easily enter water courses. We don’t generally live in fear of coal ash and disposal of coal ash is not a big part of the controversy surrounding the burning of coal. If long-lived nuclear waste is a problem for nuclear power, then coal ash, containing uranium, thorium and their daughter products, would seem to me to be a much bigger problem for coal power.

          Going back to actinide waste: If the actinides are in oxide form, most of them are refractory ceramics that are not readily soluble in water. If waste is vitrified in molten glass, then the result is a synthetic glass that will resist erosion for geological timescales. If this is buried in stable rock strata underground, it is highly unlikely that it will bother anyone.

          So we are talking about a suit case volume of radioactive material for each reactor-year, encased in glass and buried hundreds of metres underground. Whilst nuclear waste is not a non-problem, it is clearly quite a small problem.

          The reason that we don’t have a coherent waste strategy is not that we do not have any solutions for disposing of radioactive wastes. It is more that we don’t have solutions that will satisfy everyone. People that oppose nuclear power will oppose waste storage facilities anywhere near them. And this has prevented countries from building waste repositories.

          • Fast Eddy says:

            30 tonnes hahahaha that’s not a small amount when you multiply it by thousands of reactors + all the fuel in the ponds that has accumulated over decades and consider that half a gram will immediately kill a person


          • Fast Eddy says:

            Oh and if you ingest the half gram and die — that gram is not gone — it will release back into your environment over and over and over

        • Peter Cassidy says:

          Burner reactors are a better idea for waste disposal than blasting this material into space. In fast spectrum reactors, all higher actinides are fuel. The fission wastes are less radioactive than the original ore after a few centuries of decay. But turning actinides into fuel does require reprocessing technology.

      • Sam says:

        Isn’t that how Godzilla was created?

    • Peter Cassidy says:

      I do plan to comment on this important issue, but have been busy this past couple of days. Suffice to say, radioactive materials are toxic. The higher the activity (number of disintigrations per second) the more toxic the material is. This tends to mean that short lived isotopes are more dangerous than long-lived isotopes. For all the dramatacism about waste with half lives of ‘tens of thousands of years’ it is actually the shorter lived isotopes that are more toxic gram for gram, because doserate is proportional to activity.

      There are four common types of radiation. Alpha, beta, gamma and neutron. Neutron radiation is mostly produced by fission and doesn’t occur outside of reactors, barring criticality accidents. Alpha has short range in air (a few cm) and is not dangerous externally. However, it is highly ionising, high energy and high biological effectiveness. This makes it dangerous if an alpha emitter is inhaled as dust or ingested, either as particles of soluble salt. Alpha emitters tend to be heavy metals like Uranium, Americium or Plutonium, which tend to accumulate in tissues and are difficult to excrete. A lot of the difficulty with designing repositories, concerns keeping long lived alpha emitters out of ground water.

      What we call nuclear waste is actually a variety of materials, including spent fuel (high level waste), irradiated structural materials from nuclear reactors (mostly intermediate level waste) and low level waste, which includes things like lightly irradiated shielding concrete, filters and contaminated clothing. Everything around us is radioactive already. That includes the human body itself. But the more radiation you are exposed to, the higher the risk of negative health consequences like cancer. So the priority is to keep dose as low as possible.

      More than 99% of all radioactivity produced by a nuclear reactor in its lifetime is in the spent fuel itself. A large nuclear reactor produces about 10 cubic metres (30 tonnes) of spent fuel assemblies each year. These are mostly uranium, but contain about 3% fission products and 1% higher actinides. The fission products are highly dangerous, because they produce gamma radiation as they decay. Gamma is dangerous as external radiation. Simply standing in the vicinity of a recently irradiated spent fuel assembly will deliver a lethal dose in minutes. Fortunately, most of the fission products are short lived and the most troublesome long lived, Cs-137, has a half life of 30 years. So storing spent fuel until gamma levels have decayed to levels where fuel can be safely manual handled, will take a few centuries. The waste must be kept away from human beings until these toxic fission products have gone through at least 10 half lives. Many heavy actinides like plutonium are alpha emitters. You can handle plutonium with gloves and could get away with handling it with bare hands, provided you subsequently washed them thoroughly. The hazards of actinides like this are in some ways analogous to asbestos. You can safely handle asbestos and safely be in its vicinity. But grind it up and breath it into your lungs or ingest it in sigificant quantities and your life expectancy will be severely diminished. Risk is proportional dose. And dose is proprtional to the mass of radioactive material absorbed.

      Whilst radioactive materials are toxic, they are not pathogenic. The lower the activity, the lower the risk. There is no possibility of waste dumped in the ocean leading to a significant increase in radioactivity in sea water. The oceans are simply too vast and sea water is already naturally radioactive. The concern is more materials that do not dissolve and sit in sediment. This may be concentrated by filter feeders. Anyone eating those filter feeders could then take a dose.

      • MM says:

        I saw videos of elevated ticks in Geiger counters at the shores of California after Fukushima.
        It could also have been fallout from air in water or just natural.
        But it was noticed.
        A lot of radioactive material probably was disposed of in the ocean unnoticed.
        I also do not know about fishing grounds / contamination checks around Japan at the moment but I think it is not
        ” There is no possibility of waste dumped in the ocean leading to a significant increase in radioactivity in sea water. ”

        Anyhow, it seems your argumentation is improving….

  15. This post on Twitter caught my eye…leads with a graphic of excess deaths due to Cancer in the lovely (is)land of AU that some would posit serves as a control for effect of mandated mRNA gene therapy jabs in a population unexposed to Covid (eg should be no effects due to virus since “safe and effective” should have prevented any and all Covid exposure effects lol).. Illustrates significant increase in excess deaths temporally coincident with onset of jabs


    graphic taken from Joel Smalley post on “Dead Men Talking” substack (link below if want go straight to source) that has article that also looks at other categories (heart disease stroke dementia etc) and timing excess deaths in this supremely protectected populaiton.. imagine would find similar trends in NZ..looking forward to Mike’s refutation (not) of his potential future fate.


    • In the US, it is hard to see a similar trend.

      The American Cancer Society uses a headline for 2022, Risk of Dying from Cancer Continues to Drop at an Accelerated Pace

      There has been an allegation, however, that some cancer deaths have been been changed to COVID death, if I recall correctly.

      • Student says:

        If I remember well, Australia has a high rate of Covid vaccination and booster too, while U.S. has a lower rate in comparison, with booster even lower.

        • You are right. I don’t know how much difference this would make, though. I would like to see evidence in more than one country.

          Google claims that based on Our World in Data, in the US, 80.2% have one or more dose; 64.8% are fully vaccinated.

          The similar information for Australia is 87.2% have at least one dose and 84.6% are fully vaccinated.

          • Student says:

            I don’t live in U.S., but my impression is that those data for U.S. are not credible at all.
            I could believe those data if it was about Italy, where just a little minority was not vaccinated.
            But of course I cannot say precisely.

            • Xabier says:

              You might well be correct.

              In a friend’s extended family in Milan, only one old aunt didn’t get injected, the rest were all very conformist.

            • Student says:

              Xabier, Milan is a particular case,
              because people are very conformist in that area.
              Concerning Italy in general, they say that sanctions for people over 50, who refused to get the experimental mandatory jab, are for about 1,5 milions of people.
              (sanctions have been recently ‘freezed’ by the new government…)
              Then, we have to consider people below 50 who didn’t get jab, because it was not mandatory (people were ‘only’ forced through the use of green-pass).
              So we can say that maybe there are 3-5 million people without the experimental jab in Italy.
              On 60 millions, it should be a percentage between 5 and 8,3%.
              So, if I think it is correct to say that about 90-95% of people were jabbed.
              We must consider that in Italy they didn’t give the salary to people who refused the jab…
              It was a terrible totalitarian phase, that I hope it will be discussed in the future.

            • Fast Eddy says:

              Amusing that they revoke mandates on various groups of people … after the vast majority of them are already injected

              And anti-vaxxers call it a victory

            • Fast Eddy says:

              Anecdotally based on my interactions with MORE-ONS… I’d estimate that the unvaxxed is less than 10%… I know very few unvaxxed

      • The headline is based on 32% reduction of Cancer in 2019 compared to 1991 rates..significant improvements in breast and other cancer treatments extending life. Disclaimer sentence in article

        “These numbers also do not account for the effect the COVID-19 pandemic has likely had on cancer diagnoses and deaths because they are projections based on reported cases through 2018 and deaths through 2019.”

        Excess deaths in substack article for AU show increases in excess deaths in a jabbed population that was relatively unexposed to effects of Covid infection prior to intro of Jabs…excess death categorical comparisons based upon recent preCovid baseline averages (not comparing all the way back to 1991) but wouldnt be suprised if calculated ratio that some of the categories were not seeing grater that 30% increase comparable to reversion back to death rates seen back in 90’s or earlier.

  16. Agamemnon says:

    This mentions what’s already been posted here but also:

    There’s another market influencer out there too, namely the impact of IMO 2020, the International Maritime Organization (IMO) mandate that most ocean-going ships powered by fuel oil (the most common bunker fuel) use products containing less than 0.5% sulfur by weight, a significant reduction from the previous specification of 3.5% sulfur by weight. Our understanding is IMO 2020 has resulted in about 700 Mb/d of global middle distillate supplies going to bunker, putting a further squeeze on supply. We should note that these additional barrels in the bunker pool aren’t always captured in official statistics (EIA, BP Stats review, etc.) because the final fuel is still sold as bunker, even though it contains more distillate than old-school ship fuel.

    There’s one more thing we’d like to mention before we wrap up. There’s been off-and-on talk about the possibility of implementing a temporary ban on U.S. exports of refined products, including diesel, as well as a waiver of the Jones Act to allow foreign-flagged tankers to ship gasoline, diesel and heating oil from the Gulf Coast up to PADD 1. In our view, an export ban would be counterproductive and well, dumb. For one thing, PADD 3 is highly dependent on the export market to balance, with over 35% of the total middle distillate production from their refineries going to foreign destinations. The gap in PADD 1 supply is nowhere near enough to soak up that quantity of PADD 3 exports. So PADD 3 would end up massively long diesel and crack spreads for those refiners would plummet, leading many to cut rates and/or temporarily shut down if the ban carried on long enough.

    Also, an export ban would completely undermine Europe’s effort to decrease its dependence on Russia — it may even force Europe to reverse its planned import ban on Russian distillates. And then there’s the Latin American angle — parts of the region are highly dependent on refined products from the U.S. For example, Mexico imports about two-thirds of its requirements from the U.S. and Central America depends on the U.S. for about 90% of its needs. And international diesel crack spreads? With an export ban, they would likely soar into the triple digits, with $200-plus/bbl a real possibility. Isn’t the world messed up enough already?

    • This is an interesting blog post. Besides the paragraphs you copied, it talks more about other issues, including the problems of PADD 1 (US Northeast).

      The point seems important:

      ” International Maritime Organization (IMO) mandate that most ocean-going ships powered by fuel oil (the most common bunker fuel) use products containing less than 0.5% sulfur by weight, a significant reduction from the previous specification of 3.5% sulfur by weight.”

      I thought that the change was being made to give refineries more business. I expected that what had been bunker fuel would need to be further refined to get the diesel fuel. But maybe it is worse than this, given refining capabilities. Maybe existing diesel supply is spread more thinly. Perhaps bunker fuel perhaps gets less-used, or else it becomes cheaper for underdeveloped countries to purchase to burn for purposes such as making electricity.

      • Pretty sure regulations requiring reduced sulfer in both diesel and bunker fuel were to reduce SO4 (acid rain precursor) air pollution/emmisions of which shipping/transportation became significant fraction following major reduction in power plant/point source emissions (achieved in part by disallowing burning of high sulfur coal)..tradeoff between energy and “pollution”..reversion to relaxed SO4 emissions standards will allow for less clean fuels thus making easier to extract and/or refine “dirtier” feedstocks that would otherwise not be extracted/mined/pumped into less clean fuels..when we get desperate enough, transportation and coal plant fuel shortages/supply failures may be delayed by allowing dirtier fuels to be burned once again. Everything is a tradeoff and we may decide to alter course and take a different path; once again substituting acceptance of increases in possible future chronic health problems due to polltution versus preventing acute health impacts like freezing or starving due to lack of fuel.

        • I knew about the pollution-prevention reason for making the change, but I figured that some organization needed to come out ahead financially, as well, to make the change go through. That is why I thought about the additional refining business (probably including some “cracking” of long molecules, as well).

          • Jane says:

            What is PADD, pray tell.

            • The United States is divided up into different areas for petroleum administration. PADD is short for Petroleum Administration for Defense Administration. This is a link to a write up by the US EIA, including a map.


              Most oil and natural gas comes from the Gulf Coast, which is PADD 3. PADD 1A (New England) tends to be too far away from extraction to get what they need by pipeline. They rely more on imported products. The West Coast (PADD 5) also has a problem having enough locally produced oil and natural gas. This is probably part of its reason for wanting electric cars and its plan to phase out the use of natural gas.

  17. Herbie Ficklestein. says:

    Remember cute Kelly on Married With Children?

    Christina Applegate revealed she has gained 40 pounds and “can’t walk without a cane” after her multiple sclerosis diagnosis.

    “This is the first time anyone’s going to see me the way I am,” the actress, 50, told the New York Times on Monday of the upcoming third and final season of “Dead to Me.”

    Applegate noted that she is “very aware of” her changes in appearance and mobility.

    “I’m never going to accept this,” she admitted. “I’m pissed.”

    The Emmy winner went on to say that she has had to “process the loss of [her] life” and is still not “totally fine.”

    The interview came one year after Applegate began sharing her MS battle.

    EXCLUSIVE: Christina Applegate Gets Assisted Around the Set of Dead to Me Season 3 in Los Angeles

    Just goes to show…anything can occur…with or without the vax….
    Of course, we can many other names on the list…like Michael J Fox..

    Life strikes at ANY Time, folks

    • Rodster says:

      There is nothing wrong with admitting that life can sh*t on our heads from time to time. However there is nothing wrong questioning why we are fine and pretty healthy one day and our health falls apart shortly after that person took “The Jab”.

      The issue being raised is that people are no longer allowed to question or factor in “The Jab”. Those that it has happened to are basically told, “it wasn’t “The Jab”, look elsewhere. We are finding out that many should have stopped, questioned and explored the idea that it probably was “The Jab”.

    • reante says:

      “Life strikes at any time.”

      That’s a fatalistic platitude if ever I’ve heard one. debilitating disease symptomologies happen ONLY as the result of chronic systemic disease that is past the point of continued attempted healing. Debilitating disease is the body triaging disastrous circumstances as best it can and hoping for the best.

      • Herbie Ficklestein. says:

        Long while ago read that from a book of Zen sayings..
        Remember another…”Is it because of your wisdom the Eagle soars?
        I get it…lots can randomly cross our paths through no fault of our own…Love 💕 your Fate as the Ancient Greeks like to say!

        • reante says:

          Thanks Herbie. What will be of the kaleidoscope of Cause and Effect is what will be. Rondomness does not exist in a self-organizing universe.

  18. Student says:

    (Frankfurter Allgemeine)

    Also Qatar is against a maximum price allowed for gas.
    Sorry, it is your problem….


    • Translation:

      Qatar threatens to withdraw gas from Europe

      The Energy Minister of Qatar has described European proposals to cap natural gas prices as “hypocritical”. Interventions in the markets counteract the competition rules that Europe has previously applied to producers, Saad Al Kaabi said in an interview with Bloomberg TV. He is also the head of the world’s largest liquid gas producer, Qatar Energy.

      “The free market is always the best solution,” Al Kaabi said on Sunday. Capping the price of natural gas also reduces incentives to invest in gas production and could prevent some customers from accessing supplies. Competing importers could attract shipments that would otherwise go to Europe if they offered just a penny more, the minister said.

      Should winters be severe and Russian pipeline supplies fail to return to normal levels, Al Kaabi expects Europe’s troubles to last at least into 2025.

  19. Fast Eddy says:

    Hello my unvaxxed friends!!!@!!!

    Who feels GREAT?

  20. Student says:


    Israel: “This is the disease that causes the most congestion in the hospitalization system”.
    Cardiological problems…


    • Translation:

      This is the disease that causes the most burdens on the hospital system

      The late detection, the rapid rate of progress, and the threefold relationship between it and diabetes and kidney failure – make heart disease the second leading cause of death in Israel. Drug treatments developed in recent years restore the quality of life to patients, reduce the number of hospitalizations and even manage to reduce mortality rate.

      Heart failure is a disease in which the heart does not meet the demands of the body at rest or with effort. The lack of the heart’s ability to fulfill its role effectively, causes a mismatch between what the heart is able to give and what the body needs. In this situation, if the heart is weakened, its function decreases, and there is difficulty in circulating blood in sufficient quantity in stressful situations as well as in complete rest. Heart failure can occur both in patients whose heart fails to pump blood to the body’s systems, or in patients whose heart also fails to “collect” it effectively. . .

      In addition, about 15% of the population over the age of 80 suffer from atrial fibrillation (heart rhythm disorder). In this situation, the atria of the heart contract very quickly and irregularly, and thus the activity of the heart goes wrong, its output decreases and so does the flow of blood and its supply to the organs of the body.

      The dangerous trinity – diabetes, kidney failure and heart failure
      Diabetics are up to five times more likely to suffer from heart failure, and up to 20 times more likely than a healthy person to suffer from kidney failure.

      The article goes on to talk about the need for better detection of heart failure. There seems to be a simple blood test called (Brain-type Natriuretic Peptide) BNP that can detect heart failure. There seem to be some treatment options as well.

  21. Student says:


    .. and also in Norway there is a debate about the ‘strange’ excess mortality and the high number of arrivals to hospitals.
    The so-called vaccine against Covid is of course a variable completely brushed aside of the equation.
    Can we consider variable X ? Yes.
    Can we consider variable Z ? Yes.
    Can we consider variable Y ? No.


    • Translation of header:

      Overcrowded emergency rooms, 10% excess mortality: Norway’s doctors and health bureaucrats are at a loss

      How about the adverse impacts of all of the vaccines?

  22. Fast Eddy says:

    Increased cancer & COVID gene injection vaccine (especially mRNA Pfizer & Moderna): “Dr. Michel Goldman, immunologist, explains how Covid vaccine shot can worsen cancer (e.g. his); SHARYL ATTKISSON

    Dr. Ryan Cole and Dr. Bhakdi are and were correct in that the COVID vaccines are deranging the immune system and causing an explosion of cancers in remission or causing massive metastasis


    Can we all say metastasis? Again … me-tas-ti-sis

  23. banned says:

    Dr Jane Ruby discusses a myriad of subjects
    The bivalent booster- Multiple Substances- mixing different MRNA codes.
    Trumps Executive order- how it opened the door to gene editing.
    Are we entering a environment so contaminated that you wont have to get the shot to have code inserted.
    In her opinion the big push will not return. The focus will be self replicating gene editing that does not require consent from here on. Basically a virus that does the same gene editing as the injections that is airborne.
    Biotech announces MRNA cure for cancer by 2030.
    Its a bit long. There is some political bias and some my pillow hawking. Not really a lot of documenting of the opinions presented. It is suitable for listening while doing some other activity I learned from it and enjoyed it.


    • Gene therapy that we automatically receive, whether we want it or not! This doesn’t seem like an advance to me.

      The medical community (or perhaps it is the military community, or some other group, like the WEF) somehow is able to push this, without any reasonable testing and without consent by those being “treated.” Certainly, they are not subject to suits for liability.

      • Xabier says:

        Pandora’s Box has opened……

        • Dennis L. says:


          I believe there is a fabric of the universe, disturbances happen, but they revert to mean. Religion, God at one time helped us accept this and move forward with our lives from birth of the new to grieving over the end of the old.

          Communism died, a guess is the wild woke, atheist beliefs put forward by the elites are next; not because I want it, believe it, or argue for it, but because it is not consistent with God and the universe.

          Religions seem to be local interpretations of the word of God, J. Campbell looked at not the differences as much as the similarities across cultures and continents. More alike than different, many have endured for thousands of years.

          We humans are a sort of an experiment, created in the image of God, He is not done with us yet and messing with his experiment is probably not a sound idea.

          We are going to be fine and it will be fine, we may peek inside the box, but Pandora is not welcome and quickly returned to her box.

          Dennis L.

          • I agree with you. Mutations are not necessarily bad. Humans are what they are today because of mutations and “survival of the best adapted.”

            • MM says:

              Unfortunately the other side of the coin in your argument is that some mutations can lead to extinction.
              imho it would be wise to keep the mutation rate as low as possible except we hate our own existence..

              It’s just coin tossing anyways.

        • Jane says:

          “Pandora’s Box” = Bill Gates’s little box of modified mosquitos.

          Gates is a monster.
          I hereby declare a fatwa on Bill Gates.

    • reante says:

      another name for this would be air pollution. synthetic, genetic air pollution. not very promising WRT a depopulation agenda, but perhaps not negligible under highly controlled indoor conditions. In healthy people these airborne nanolipids would just get wrapped up in mucusin the respiratory system, head up the mucosal elevator to the mouth, get swallowed, and destroyed in the digestive tract in any number of ways or excreted.

    • MM says:

      Once in a while it pops up that livestock has some new mandatory mRNA injections (Australia?)
      You can make a safe bet that spike will travel with dairy products.
      There has also been studies on plants that produce vaccines. I do not know if it is ready for human consumption yet but you can make a safe bet that you will never be told at the groceries.
      On reante’s topic of pollution, you could say that we are rapidly approaching a grey goo scenario meaning just no unspoiled living thing on this planet..

      • reante says:

        The dairy products get cooked and forced through tiny holes at high pressure. Everything gets killed.

        • Mike Roberts says:

          Not everything gets killed in that process – you lose the nutrients in the fat globules but most is killed in the pasteurization process. So truly fresh milk is best and non-homogenised milk is better than homogenised (which is almost pointless apart from taste considerations).

          • reante says:

            Not sure what you mean by not everything gets killed with pasteurizing. Not sure why I was talking about killing since mRNA isn’t an organism anyway. Destroyed is what I should have said. ‘Viruses’ in cooked milk would be destroyed. I imagine they’d be destroyed by homogenization too.

        • Fast Eddy says:

          Being in Australia I was thinking about this … and if mrna could be easily distributed through food – they would not have bothered with the injections … they’d just add it to the water supply…

          I suspect this is another PR Team ploy to convince the MOREONS that mrna is safe … they might add it to chewing gum…

        • MM says:

          Do a search on vaccinated breast feeding.
          You are right, maybe the mrnna will not pass the cow but an evil spike protein will and it might pass the chemical processing.
          We have accumulated lipid nano particles in humans and probably also in meat and dairy.
          On the other hand the risk is probably low because of molecular stability limits.

    • Rodster says:

      See the audience was applauding at the end. It was all part of the act. A funny act I must admit. Too much twirling round and round. The poor girl was just probably exhausted. 🥸

      • Xabier says:

        Madame Fast is completely right, in my experience: firm or gentle warning, they just won’t listen.

        They have only vestigial reasoning capacity, and the expert propaganda got in early and hard.

        One need feel no guilt at all when they kick the bucket.

        • banned says:

          “they just won’t listen”

          Wouldnt that be the first code you would change? Far fetched. Yes. Just saying.

      • Rodster says:

        M Fast is correct. She already was conditioned to believe her heart damage was not the result of the vaccines. It’s like when you are feeling fine one day, get vaxxed the next day and all of a sudden you start suffering from all kinds of problems and the only thing that changed was the vax. You tell ask your Doctor if it was the vaccine you took. They’ll probably say, impossible. Then you hear the same sh*t from others and then you start to believe the injections are safe. Hahaha, suckers !

        • Fast Eddy says:

          The thing is …

          They will perform mental gymnastics to convince themselves it’s not the vax….

          Never had a heart problem — then soon after the injection you have a heart problem. But the vax is safe and effective – can’t be the vax.

          Then you have a neurological problem the day after the vax… nope not the vax – that’s safe and effective.

          So guess what — the vast majority of these fools refuse to connect the dots — so the are not telling others that the vax wrecked them….

          It’s almost like it’s a dirty secret (like what norm does with SSS out back the Dumpster only different)…. that is so vile that they convince themselves they did not bring their horrifying condition upon themselves….

          Oh no — nobody will acknowledge their stooopidity … they will not blame the vax… it’s safe and effective… and without it we’d all be dead – right?

          This well and truly is a horror show we are witnessing — however if we consider the nightmare we have subjected the innocent animals of the planet to for many centuries…

          This is exactly what the humans deserve… a taste of their own medicine… how’s it feel to be part of the multi billion MORE-ON experiment norm?

  24. Fast Eddy says:

    prepping for Global Holodomor here in NZ — https://t.me/TheHealthForumNZch/2424


    Have you heard that more than 200 Chinese cities are in full or partial lockdown now?

    This was in Zhengzhou — A city of 14 millions inhabitants yesterday



    • Strange things happen when energy per capita falls too short. We end up with a Musical Chairs situation.

      One of them is governments trying to promote uniform behavior and an “outgroup” of those who do not agree to that uniform behavior.

      Another of the strange things is the lockdowns in China. The major effect of these lockdowns is that they save energy, particularly oil but also food, because duplicate food production facilities are not in use. They also hide shortages in China, and they prevent demonstrations by citizens unhappy about something, such as promised condominiums that have not actually been built.

  25. Slowly at first says:

    It is now November and we are still here (i.e., not incinerated).

    • davidinamonthorayearoradecade says:

      WW3 would be exciting, but the waiting is the hardest part.

      now the USA officially has “boots on the ground” in Ukraine, so there is some untapped potential there.

      it is now November 2022, so rumours of the Collapse of IC back in 2017 have been greatly exaggerated.

      even NZ is still bAU, maybe not for long, though European horses have a nose in front.

      tomorrow, tomorrow, you’re always a day away.

    • Fast Eddy says:

      One month into Q4 — still time for BOOM

    • We need to take advantage of the good times we have now. We don’t know precisely how things will play out. Some parts of the world are likely to be affected sooner and more severely than others.

  26. Hideaway says:

    Just for @Peter Cassidy on his ‘cheap’ Chinese NPP. It still doesn’t come close to the energy returned by something like a coal mine. Nor does it provide a range of products, just electricity.

    The coal mine I cite is not the cheapest in the world, just an average US underground mine that started operation in 2021, so costs and energy return are comparable to a NPP in the USA that is starting operation currently.

    If we were to compare the cheapest NPP in the world, then we would need to find the cheapest new coking coal mine in the world for a like to like comparison.

    Should I use a mine with just a $28m start up cost that will produce 2Mt/a like the New Elk open pit mine instead of just a common underground mine?? Or perhaps the Bumi Barito Mineral (BBM) coking coal project in Indonesia with a start up cost of ~$50M and very low operating costs??

    I deliberately didn’t choose the cheapest coal mine so that like for like could be used.

    Even with your cheapest NPP the $1.7B cost (in 2021 $ at a world average price of energy of $43.57 for 2021) still costs about 39,000,000Mwh worth of background energy to build.
    The Leer South underground coal mine cost $400M or about 9,180,000Mwh to build.

    The cheapest NPP will produce 1,150Mw X 24 X 365 X .9 = ~9,060,000Mwh/yr.
    The coal mine produces 8Mt/yr X 8Mwh/t = ~64,000,000Mwh/yr.

    It’s still no comparison with the coal mine producing multiples of energy for a fraction of the cost every year, with many other coal mines much cheaper to build and operate

    On operating costs the World Nuclear Association comes up with O&M costs of between $28- $106/Mwh depending on where and cost of fuel. Taking the cheapest end at $30/Mwh for Nuclear and the cost of the Leer South coal mine of $60/t which equals $7.5/Mwh, the coal mine is still miles ahead.

    The energy sources need to throw off massive amounts of energy above their cost so that the rest of the system can operate. Nuclear compared to coal clearly doesn’t do this and neither does solar or wind.

    If you have to convert the electricity to some type of liquid fuel for transport and industry, the figures become multiple times worse, as you have to include the electrolysers, compression of gasses, holding tanks, then transport in the overall cost of the NPP to make useful energy and products.

    Peter work out the total cost of your NPP plus the extras to smelt iron compared to coking coal, that goes through distillation to produce coke (plus lots of other useful products), that gets chucked in an existing smelter, all built with fossil fuels.

    All nuclear, solar and wind projects are distractions from the real problems of lower net energy from FFs.

    • Fast Eddy says:

      It’s like trying to explain to norm that the injections are worse than useless… and often deadly… he’ll just keep on boosting…

      And peter will keep on dropping these nonsensical ‘solutions’ to the energy problem

      It’s a zombie world

    • reante says:

      Magnificent breakdown, thanks Hideaway.

    • nikoB says:

      a good solid comparison of energy ins and outs.
      we are on the road to no road.

    • Peter Cassidy says:

      Remember that most coal is used to produce electricity. In that circumstance, only about one third of the energy yield of the coal mine is converted to electric power. And the coal burning powerplant will have capital cost as well.

      Regarding the use of electricity to produce refined metals – electric arc furnaces are already standard for producing steel from either recycled scrap or pig iron. One could reasonably ask how do we use nuclear or renewable electricity to produce pig iron? I think the answer is that we would mix pig iron powder with crushed iron ore, heat it using induction coils and then pass hydrogen through it as a reducing agent. I could carry out an energy and cost analysis at some point, but work is eating my time at present.

      One area that might struggle to function economically with electricity as input is cement production. There we need high industrial heat – about 2000°C. The only way of producing that heat without NG or coal gas, is by burning hydrogen, possibly using oxygen yielded from electrolysis to increase temperature.

      • This is a chart I found on an IEA website earlier showing the breakdown of coal use worldwide in 2016. Only 46% was used for making electricity, alone. 23% was burned to provide heat for buildings.


        Another 17% was used for combined heat and power. With this approach, the “waste heat” is used to heat nearby buildings. This approach tends to be polluting, but it is used widely in China.

        Blast furnaces used 6% of world coal in 2016.

        • Hideaway says:

          There is also the opposite of needing to build power plants to make electricity, being the NPP would have to build hydrogen electrolysers, plus carbon capture plants, plus synthetic fuel plants for us to gain plastics and liquid fuel for long distance transport, or remote mines.

          Everyone that drinks the electric future kool aide tends to forget it’s a 2 way street. Fossil fuels already cover all the needs for a modern civilization, with electricity there is massive efficiency losses making these other things. Coal is about 40% efficient in a modern power plant (not 33%), but nuclear to synthetic fuels or plastics is only about 6% efficient at best. That’s 6% of the electricity production, not the heat.

          If we are going to have an electric future, then massive mining in many remote places will need to happen as we have used all the high grade easy to obtain minerals close to civilization.

          Currently we use around 8% of world GDP for the production of energy, plus or minus 2% for stable economies. When we go above that range the wheels tend to fall off. To build what is necessary would be spending on top of the current 8-10% (probably 10% this year), which would create all types of problems and shortages across the world. The numbers clearly show we would need to spend about 10 times what is currently spent on energy to build the envisaged ‘sustainable future’. It simply isn’t possible to keep the rest of civilization going on only 20% of world GDP.

          Such is the difference in returns from the $400M coal mine that returns 64,000,000Mwh per year of energy compared to the NPP that costs $15B to return only 9,400,000Mwh per year…

    • Withnail says:

      Even with your cheapest NPP the $1.7B cost (in 2021 $ at a world average price of energy of $43.57 for 2021)

      Needs refuelling every two years as well. Sooner or later the uranium fuel rod supply line will run into problems.

  27. CTG says:

    I was looking through the videos from the time the pandemic starts until today. The videos does not really look real or convincing. Many oft he protests, falling ill, collapsing, etc especially from China does not jive with reality and how people would act. For an example a video of a protestor in a European country. The police dog was biting the hands (or sleeves) of a protestor. Seems that that place was fully protector against dog bites.

    Nothing can be trusted anymore…I mean really nothing…

    • Fast Eddy says:

      Failed in Hollywood? Be a crisis actor… the opportunities are limitless.

      The way to keep getting crisis acting gigs is o keep your mouth shut … not that it matters much — nobody would believe you anyway. But they monitor everything … so they’d know … and the jobs would dry up.

    • MM says:

      On the topic of false and true you could say that it both together make a perfect quantum state.
      Well until some fool looks at it, haha.
      I recommend to read this article and let the concept of Schrödinger’s bomb sink in:


      A quantum leap in blog posting 🙂

  28. Lastcall says:

    Sorry, butI ran out of thread to answer you Norman, but I couldn’t let your nonsense stand.
    You said;
    ‘…overcrowding and poor diet are synonymous
    I would have thought that didn’t need pointing out.
    If you live in a city of 10m people, then it stands to reason that your food will be unhealthily processed to give you (cheap) access to it.’

    I have been to Hong Kong; the street food there was far superior, and less processed to the food available in some shops in small town, uncrowded NZ.
    Overcrowding and poor diet are not synonymous. …’I would have thought that didn’t need pointing out.’

    Your stuffed shirt is getting in the way of your awareness of the world out there.


    • obviously there are exceptions

      i too have had mind blowing food from a city street vendor on a plastic plate

      my comment still stands—mass food supply to mass city dwellers is likely to be of poor processed quality, the necessary economics of production and supply dictates that

      i dont think citing exceptions will alter it much

      • Lastcall says:

        Ok, so u have stepped back from ‘synonymous’ to ‘likely’.
        Baby steps, but a good start toward a little humility.

        Exceptions are one of the most important signposts to a new paradigm; they challenge us to dig a little deeper.

        No need to throw out the old for the new, but let the light of an inquiring mind go to work before you dismiss from a position of ‘educated’ ignorance.

      • Jane says:

        Ever tried to go shopping in a small town in Ireland? I don’t recommend it

        In the USA pepole drive from small towns and suburbs to supermarkets where they expect to and do find basically the same offering as in any larger city, where there are also supermarkets!! Who’da thunkit. Furthermore in most cities there are far wealthier residents w ho ensure that a supply of decent food is available to be purchased (and not just in restaurants). Most large cities have multiple neighborhoods, and many neighborhoods also have farmer’s markets.

        The farther you get from a large city, the worse the choice of food will be.

        You do not know what you are talking about.

        • Xabier says:

          A slightly different point, but a very wealthy friend who lives in a super-prime suburb of London was shocked when he came to Cambridge and saw just how many shops were closed during lock-down and how dead everything was.

          In his area, all the shops were high-end food suppliers, not just supermarkets but butchers, bakers delicatessens, etc.

          They were ‘essential’ and stayed open and life for the rich was not disturbed one bit. The quality of food is very high there. In fact, the fruit and veg shop is actually owned by….. wait for it…. the Rothschilds! (they have a house just round the corner from him, nice set-up, eh?)

          There are big housing blocks within walking distance, and they too could benefit from these shops if they were to walk there.

          • sweeping generalisation coming

            but the folks in the big housing blocks might not be able to afford ‘high end food’

            ////quote… In his area, all the shops were high-end food suppliers, not just supermarkets but butchers, bakers delicatessens, etc.
            They were ‘essential’ and stayed open and life for the rich was not disturbed one bit.////

            If you’re going to say I’m wrong in one comment—and then confirm that I’m right in another, you really should do some cross referencing Xabier

            It get embarrassing to read

            • Xabier says:

              Actually, if those lazy, fat, fast-food-scoffing idiots took the trouble to get over to that fruit and veg shop it wouldn’t break the bank. The Rothschild shop is in fact keenly competitive.

              But no, on the whole they don’t do walking, too much effort to move their fat backsides. And drink, drugs and fags are so much better: we all know the type.

              And the supermarkets have been in a price war for years, so that was affordable too.

              The fact that ‘food deserts’ exist, esp in the US, and the recent inflation are another matter.

              And yes, you do get embarrassing to read. Spot on for once!

            • perhaps we should refrain from embarrassing each other?

            • Fast Eddy says:

              They stuff their maws with garbage then they demand a magic pill when their poisoned bodies fail.

        • you used the term ‘wealthier residents’, which says it all really.

          I’m not ‘wealthy’—in fact the elite rejected my application to join just for being $1 short

          A higher income level buys a better level of food quality.
          A family on low income goes for the cheapest food options

          Maybe I’m missing something, I can’t see where the argument lies on that–simple economics.

          And yes—I do enjoy shopping in rural Ireland, but one has to be selective—same as anywhere else—Several shops in Cahersiveen we make a beeline for, every time.

          Those wonderful exceptions don’t after the overall pattern though.

          • Jane says:

            “A family on low income goes for the cheapest food options

            Maybe I’m missing something, ”

            Yeah, you are missing “something.”

            That “something” is the reasons that many low-income families make very poor, uneconomical, and unhealthy choices: wasting their money on low-quality but expensive processed food. Many of them go to MacDonald’s to get the family’s meals (I saw this in a documentary about people who can’t afford food). If they spent the same money on beans and veg and small piece of meat they could actually have a decent meal. Also, many states, counties, towns, and other entities maintain food banks, and churches have various meal programs. Also for children to get milk.

            The real problem for many is not having a place to prepare food—living out of a car. Even so, using MacDonald’s as a food market is not the best choice.

            Another problem is that children are given pocket money to spend for snacks at school, which often have vending machines selling expensive unhealth s—.

            As I think I mentioned up=thread, or meant to mention but wanted to keep it short, much of the problem in the USA is too much TV watching and consequent exposure to propaganda (advertising) that leads people to waste their food dollars (not mention wrecking their bodies and their mental health generally).

            Don’t forget also the massive volume of soft drinks consumed by the poor in this country—expensive, empty calories that harm health. Not to mention wastage on stuff like Starbuck’s and other expensive drinks whose prices include the cost of all of the one-use throw-away containers.

            Many people have a narrow idea of what constitutes a meal. An apple with a large hunk of cheese makes a good meal.

            I am finding that so far, even with the increase in food prices, there are always items on sale, such as canned tomatoes etc. and I am not spending much more than I was before. We’ll see how that goes as the inflation and supply-chain situation develops (also drought affecting food distribution via Mississippi).

            • all that reads as a collective social problem Jane

              I know I get blamed for most of the ills of the world, here on OFW (infanticde and mass vax deaths for instance) but i hardly think that is my doing

              is it?

            • Fast Eddy says:

              I did a stint covering for a teacher who was prego and threatened by a class of kids with criminal records … anyhow … I dared to ask why the cafeteria was selling primarily unhealthy food and paid for my sins…

              A giant fat slob of a man (I think he was in the closet — he would go to the big city and come back with ‘outfits’.. he actually referred to his clothes as outfits)… took great offence insisting if we didn’t sell fries and burgers they’d go down the street…

              I suggested we consider selling cocaine and meth in the cafeteria … so we can maintain consistent logic… that was not well-received ‘cuz that’s different’

        • rambling again eddy

          if i could make sense of any of that i would reply.

          please try harder–maybe do an online course in basic English?

      • Withnail says:

        my comment still stands—mass food supply to mass city dwellers is likely to be of poor processed quality, the necessary economics of production and supply dictates that

        Superficially plausible but untrue both today and for the entire history of cities. It might have made sense if fresh vegetables somehow needed to be ‘processed’ in order to enter city limits, but they don’t.

        • Artleads says:


        • endless subject of discussion

          but if it interests you, I can only suggest you do some research on, say, the food adulteration of the ‘common people’ of victorian London. You did say–‘for the entire history of cities’.

          That will save me being castigated for ‘pomposity’ and such nonsense, by people who know little about the subject. (I don’t pretend to know very much, but enough)


          There’s lots more.

          This has always been a problem, except for those rich enough to buy better food. It still is.
          Economic necessity drives people to buy the cheapest food. City living has always been expensive–that affects ability to buy food

          • Withnail says:

            I’m just talking about vegetables. Not pickles, not things in jars, not pies. I’m aware that Victorian manufactured food items could be adulterated.

            • a prime subject of the link i posted covered bread and milk.

              it is very difficult to gain sufficient calorie intake just from vegetables

            • Tim Groves says:

              I hear Mrs. Lovett made some excellent meat pies.

            • Withnail says:

              a prime subject of the link i posted covered bread and milk.

              I said I was talking about vegetables.

              it is very difficult to gain sufficient calorie intake just from vegetables

              Vegans do it.

              it isn’t possible to feed cities via horse and cart

              It’s possible as long as farmland isn’t exhausted.

            • it has been estimated, that to supply a city the size of London, with sufficient energy to maintain BAU, (make no mistake–that is what people expect)from existing land, would require a land area 2.5 times the size of the UK–and that excludes everyone else btw

              You said–as long as land isn’t exhausted

              which I think says it all.

              You cannot–repeat cannot support a modern city with a horse and cart transport system

              if you imagine a medieval city yes–but with a medieval population

            • and without supervision, food will always be adulterated–which is the thread of this discuss

          • A depressing situation!

            • that was the point i was trying to put across

              i’m not interested in ‘making points’ for the sake of it

              our future food supply problem is serious, cities are literally unsustainable in energy terms, whether for food or fuels

              it isn’t possible to feed cities via horse and cart

    • Lastcall says:

      This is the definition of stuffed shirt that I stand with; just to be clear.

      ‘….stuffed shirt: [noun] a smug, conceited, and usually pompous person often with an inflexibly conservative or reactionary attitude.’

      If the shirt fits…

      • i just got my dress shirt back from the laundry

        other people judge my writing differently,

        on this thread, others have agreed with me. The vast majority of people go for the cheapest food. however it it produced.
        This is due to affordability. Quality food costs more. Simple as that.
        So my comment still stands—poor diet is synonymous with overcrowding in cities. Living in cities is expensive, so diet suffers.

        citing exceptions, which obviously there are bound to be, doesn’t change that.

        my writing style is due to a lifetime of writing down ‘factual information’, and presenting it ‘as is’. so i can’t alter it now, sorry about that.
        “Follow these instructions or risk death” sharpens one’s writing style a bit.

        A lot of stuff I write down just to clarify my own thinking. Others may agree/disagree. It’s their choice. I don’t get uptight about it—you may have noticed that.

        i don’t do hoaxes and conspiracies and plots. And tend to pour scorn on those who do. Mostly I ignore it all. Unless it’s directed at me.
        You may be a conspiraholic. In which case you won’t like things I say.
        I can’t help that.

    • US Standard American Diet is incredibly poor, even though the country is rich.

      • Jane says:

        True, and I bet the likelihood of people eating a poor diet grows as one gets farther away from larger population centers, especially west of the Mississippi—despite the existence of food deserts in some cities.

        The terrible American diet is an issue of educaiton and propaganda, not the availability of food.

        Of course people living on the street do not have options to prepare decent food.

        • propaganda doesn’t make food cheaper

          the ‘food desert’ derives for the cost of access to it. There is no profit in shipping food to areas where most people simply can’t afford it

          • Jane says:

            Obviously, propaganda does not make food cheaper. Total non sequitur.

            It makes food more expensive because the propaganda must be paid for.

            The reason cities were founded as market centers was because they were a draw for both sellers and buyers. To market to market to buy a fat pig/ Or to sell a basket of eggs.
            Home again home again/ Jiggety jig.
            Get the idea?

            in a modern economy the availabitity of food is dependent not on the size of a population center but on supply and distribution factors.

            “Grow your own” is a great idea if you are Amish, leave near an Amish farm (where milk, eggs, and meat are produced), or live nearish to a supermarket.

            For a very long time now, people have had far more choices in finding food sources in cities than in isolated areas. Where in the world do you live, that you have developed the notion that the only available food becomes more processed as the population increases?

            • cities, in the main, arose at the junction of land and water—ie crossing points of rivers, and ports on the coasts.

              trade and markets grew from there, without fixed parameters of what a city should be

              modern cities are entirely a construct of fossil fuels

              without fossel fuels they will collapse

            • I would agree that modern cities are entirely a construct of fossil fuels. Today’s cities have no room for draft animals and their manure. They are not set up to handle this situation. Fossil fuels enable the huge amount of inputs from rural areas and from areas that can be reached by boat that are needed for a modern city. Fossil fuels are also useful from taking away waste.

        • All is Dust says:

          The situation in Ukraine will give us an insight into the viability of feeding a city (and keeping it free from disease) once electricity becomes unreliable and access to clean water becomes “problematic”.

          And if cities are to be evacuated, where are the people evacuated too? I suspect Poland will be first in line to find out.

  29. Student says:


    Also in Switzerland they are discussing about a ‘strange’ excess mortality that they are experiencing lately.
    ‘Experts’ are wondering why…
    Of course every variabile can be mentioned in order to compose the equation, except the taboo one…